Suicide is such sorrow

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  • #26
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Your arguements dilutes the issue of this latter form of suicide which is really only synonymous to what you're addressing in name and legal description. It's not productive in a discussion of suicide as a social problem. ...
You are correct. And I apologize. No disrespect was intended.
 
  • #27
Drakkith
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Suicide is also in my opinion the paramount of selfish acts. Whether it's intended or not the message that is sent through suicide is "f**k you all." You can't even tell the person how angry you are about it; they're gone and you are left here with the pain they didn't want to deal with.
Personally I see the message as, "I can't handle this anymore".
 
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  • #28
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Personally I see the message as, "I can't handle this anymore".
That is the message with some, I have seen it in some cases as a "let fate decide" message with others especially with overdose. There was one case in my neighborhood actually, and I knew the guy. He hung himself from a rope swing in his back yard. The swing was positioned inside of a dog lot with a dog that only the family could control (full blooded pit bull). He climbed on the dog house made a slip not in the rope took a pocket knife out of his pocket according to a witness he said if I can cut the rope I live if not I'm gone, he jumped off the dog house and tried to cut the rope. The rope was to thick and was a plastic ski rope. They left him hanging in the tree till the crime scene investigation was completed which seemed to take forever. They actually left part of the rope hanging in the tree.

There are many reasons and many messages....some understandable.....others are puzzling (those who seem to have everything to live for) some times its an accident and they never intended to complete the act and they always thought someone would save them. The most bizarre suicides are out of the blue for no reason what so ever. There is a psychological theory that some are high functioning schizophrenics and that a malfunction of the mind drove them to do it. The main cause of most suicides in physically healthy people is simple depression coupled with bad circumstances. Some suicides aren't suicides at all, they are made to look like suicides, one of the easiest ways to get away with murder is to have a plausible suicide or accidental death scenario. We can even know a person is guilty but if you cant prove it there is nothing you can do, if your suspect is your main witness.
 
  • #29
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A friend who works for a pharmaceutical company did a research on a certain drug and she found out that a person tried to mildly overdose with it but drunk lots of coffee before taking the drug probably hoping that the caffeine would keep him alive. However, caffeine actually increases the effectiveness of the drug and the person died.
 
  • #30
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Personally I see the message as, "I can't handle this anymore".
The point I am trying to make is about the message the act itself sends. It needs not be related to what if anything the victim was trying to state with the act.

When someone complains they can't take this heat, or this stress, how often do you see them drop over dead? One's perception of what they personally may be able to "handle" could be very different from reality. To commit suicide is to commit to the resignation that you don't desire to be helped out of this situation you are breaking under. You forego any chance that anyone will ever have to try to turn your view around. As long as you are alive this is a possibility, death is irrevocable and every single person knows this.

With regards to intent, if you could somehow convey a message from beyond that this is just the choice you wanted to make, that it wasn't intended to hurt anyone besides yourself, well, how much consolation do you thing that would really bring to your loved ones?
 
  • #31
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To commit suicide is to commit to the resignation that you don't desire to be helped out of this situation you are breaking under.
That would be true if the person was fully rational and able to actually see and objectively comprehend all sides of the issues tormenting them. People are not as rational as we as a society pretend, nor is free will nearly so absolute as we want to believe it is. In general such suicides as you are considering are issues of mental health not moral failings.
 
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  • #32
Drakkith
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The point I am trying to make is about the message the act itself sends. It needs not be related to what if anything the victim was trying to state with the act.
I disagree with this.

When someone complains they can't take this heat, or this stress, how often do you see them drop over dead? One's perception of what they personally may be able to "handle" could be very different from reality. To commit suicide is to commit to the resignation that you don't desire to be helped out of this situation you are breaking under.
I strongly disagree with this. I can't imagine that most people who commit suicide have little to no desire to be helped. As I understand it, most people who resort to suicide do so because they haven't been able to get the help they want/need and don't think that they have any reasonable options left. And this ignores the very large portion of suicides committed by people who, quite literally, aren't in their right minds because of extreme stress, fear, depression, substance abuse, and a multitude of other reasons. From my reading, approximately 90% of all suicides are due to one or more of the reasons I just listed.

In addition, I know directly from a primary source that some people go through the act of attempting to commit suicide just so their cries for help will be heard. It is unfortunate that many of these attempted suicides become actual suicides because they aren't found soon enough or have been too effective in their suicide attempt.

When my father was about 16, he says he took an entire bottle of pills in a suicide attempt and then purposely laid down on the steps of the house just so his mother would find him. He could have gone to his room, where his mother would have left him in their for hours, if she'd even checked on him at all before a few days went by. He says that the entire act was a cry for help.

And you don't have to take this one case as the only evidence for this. This is well documented:

Most suicide attempts do not result in death. Many of these attempts are done in a way that makes rescue possible. These attempts are often a cry for help.

Source: https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001554.htm

With regards to intent, if you could somehow convey a message from beyond that this is just the choice you wanted to make, that it wasn't intended to hurt anyone besides yourself, well, how much consolation do you thing that would really bring to your loved ones?
I expect that the amount of consolation it would bring runs the full spectrum from "none at all" to "greatly easing their pain and answering most of their questions", with the majority of cases lying somewhere in the middle.

That would be true if the person was fully rational and able to actually see and objectively comprehend all sides of the issues tormenting them. People are not as rational as we as a society pretend, nor is free will nearly so absolute as we want to believe it is. In general such suicides as you are considering are issues of mental health not moral failings.
Words alone cannot express the amount of agreement I have with this statement.
 
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  • #33
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I strongly disagree with this. I can't imagine that most people who commit suicide have little to no desire to be helped. As I understand it, most people who resort to suicide do so because they haven't been able to get the help they want/need and don't think that they have any reasonable options left.
I would argue that a major part of depression and suicidal ideation is that they have little to no desire to be helped. Speaking from personal and peer experience, in that condition you lose every ounce of your self-esteem and firmly believe that you are not worth helping and in even more extreme cases that the world will be a better place without you. Reversing this belief is often the key to helping someone suicidal, doing which is no mean feat. To put it more succinctly, depression lies.
 
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  • #34
Amrator
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As others have stated, when you are at the point where you are having suicidal thoughts, you are usually too mentally unstable and/or psychologically exhausted to think rationally. This is why judging a person who is suicidal is the last thing you want to do.
 
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  • #35
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I don't see a dichotomy here.

Most suicide attempts do not result in death. Many of these attempts are done in a way that makes rescue possible. These attempts are often a cry for help.
Often does not mean always. It would not surprise me greatly if both attitudes were common and often occuring in the same individual at the same time.
 
  • #36
I never want to invalidate the feelings of people who feel suicidal. They're suicidal for a reason, whether it's due to mental illness, bad life circumstances or a lack of a supportive network of family and friends.

I think it's more important to work on fixing the things that make people feel suicidal rather than to just focus on the suicide part.
 
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  • #37
Drakkith
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Often does not mean always. It would not surprise me greatly if both attitudes were common and often occuring in the same individual at the same time.
Agreed.
 
  • #38
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I always tell anyone who even talks casually about suicide 'its a permanent solution to temporary problems, eventually all storms pass"
You mean well, but these kind of sentences actually do more harm than good. First of all, it's not true. And even if it were true, the person committing suicide does not recognize the truth of this sentence at all. Second, by somebody saying sentences like this, they have basically stopped the conversation. This kind of thing might be true in your eyes and you might be very comfortable in its truth. The person committing suicide does not care about platitutes that he thinks are mostly false anyway. They are interested in having a genuine conversation about their feelings without anybody judging them or their decisions.

You have to recognize that people committing suicide have a very narrow tunnel vision. They do not think the same way you and I do. Rational arguments such as "All things pass" or "life will get better" or whatever are being shot down immediately by the person's depression. They simply do not work. If anything, they do more harm than good because the conversation has been ended.

Try to listen to the person. Without judging. Try to feel their pain. Try to see where they are coming from. Don't judge. Don't propose things the person should do that sound rational to you, they will shoot it down and you will reach a point where you have no suggestions left and you feel completely out of ideas. This is exactly how they feel.
 
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  • #39
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Yes and when they choose to end their own life they shed all that pain to everyone they care about. They get the one way ticket out. Suicide causes permanent damage to more people than the direct victim. The act of suicide conveys a hurtful message irrespective of whatever the one who carries it out wants to say. Sometimes it can even be part of the intent. It's nothing glorious. It just spreads the misery around.

I just don't believe you get the choice in that part. It's fine to excercise a right and demonstrate control over your own life and make it your own choice but if there's anyone in the world who cares about you I can promise they prefer to have you around. Severe pain and suffering aside, it's a choice you make to deprive others of your presence so that your own experience might overall be less unpleasant. It's a selfish decision plain and simple.
I'm sorry but you are the one who is selfish. You are the one who rather wants people you love to live on in unbelievable pain and agony because you rather want to have them around.

I understand fully that you severely miss a suicide victim. Very understandable. But once you realize the truth, you should be happy that their pain and agony are finally over.
 
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  • #40
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You mean well, but these kind of sentences actually do more harm than good. First of all, it's not true. And even if it were true, the person committing suicide does not recognize the truth of this sentence at all. Second, by somebody saying sentences like this, they have basically stopped the conversation.
Well its an expression we use when talking to people about suicide, not people contemplating the act.

And its absolutely a true statement. Especially when talking to people about suicide. Its a permanent act if its completed, there is no do overs.

And if a person isnt terminally ill or has a life threatening injury that cant be treated. Then everything else is workable in a different way.

All that being said, its been my experience and training that people who talk about killing themselves to anyone are screaming HELP ME NOW. The biggest mistake a person can make when dealing with a suicidal person is thinking they know what that person is going through. You do not. All you can do it offer a ear and help. In some instances in the case of those incarcerated you can some what negate their ability to complete the act. With a person walking free....if the situation is bad enough you can talk them into voluntary commitment. Or you can if (you can prove they are a danger to themselves or others) have them commited involuntarily.

If someone is determined to end their life for whatever reason, usually you wont know anything about it until someone finds a body.
 
  • #41
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And if a person isnt terminally ill or has a life threatening injury that cant be treated. Then everything else is workable in a different way.
That seems like a very convenient lie that people like to tell themselves. The truth is much more complex. For some people, the mental pain does not get cured. For some people, it does not get better.

If someone is determined to end their life for whatever reason, usually you wont know anything about it until someone finds a body.
That is provably false. Research has actually shown most people do give signs of what they are about to do. Most people do ask for help in one way or another. Problem is that the signs are often not recognized, and the help is not adequate.

http://www.mentalhealthamerica.net/suicide

Remember: Eight out of ten people considering suicide give some sign of their intentions. People who talk about suicide, threaten suicide, or call suicide crisis centers are 30 times more likely than average to kill themselves.
 
  • #42
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That is provably false. Research has actually shown most people do give signs of what they are about to do. Most people do ask for help in one way or another. Problem is that the signs are often not recognized, and the help is not adequate.

I'll have to see an exceptible reference for that. Absolutely nothing ive said contradicts anything in your reference. Being In law enforcement for the past 15 years this i have seen a lot. Suicide is an unfortunate part of that, some people give no warning. They just do it. Others give signs that are so suttle to the untrained. They would go completely unnoticed. We have strict legal protocol that we go by, and if you can spot EVERY SUICIDE before it happens. I know some people that would love to hire you.

If you'd like to debate the semantics of what said or what you consider a (warning sign) in your superior method for perventing them then start another thread.
 
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  • #43
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These are quotes from the study you posted.

  • The actual ratio of attempts to completed suicides is probably at least 10 to 1
For every 10 attempts there is
"probably" 1 suicide.

Why Do People Attempt Suicide?

A suicide attempt is a clear indication that something is gravely wrong in a person’s life. No matter the race or age of the person; how rich or poor they are, it is true that most people who die by suicide have a mental or emotional disorder. The most common underlying disorder is depression, 30% to 70% of suicide victims suffer from major depression or bipolar (manic-depressive) disorder.

This study is based totally on data from people who have made previous attempts.....,not all suicidal individuals are depressed or bipolar.

  • 30,000 Americans die by suicide each year; an additional 500,000 Americans attempt suicide annually
So out of 500,000 ATTEMPTS 6% actually commit suicide. It gives no quantifiable data for reason or any "signs" for that 6% or that they made any previous attempts at completing the act. That is hardly any provabale data.

The only coralation is that there were previous attempts at suicide.
And for every attempt that is recognized and treated how many recovered and how many finally completed the act. Again there arent any numbers on that.


Ive never interveiw a suicide victim and neither has anyone else. So how can you make a claim that people always give clear signs.

Some first suicide attemps are successful even if that wasnt the intention.

Where is the study on the odd occasion of suicides with no witnesses or signs, suicide by cop or other missing numbers. The numbers qouted in the study are based as far as i can see on people who are (contemplating/thinking) about it. Or those who have had passed unsuccessfully attempts.

Who is to say that they werent just (attempting without the intent of completing) and accidentally succeeded.

This study and the data in question counts for the portion of those who clearly showed signs of suicide. There is no quantifiable data in that study about people that show no signs or commit suicide unintentionally.
 
  • #44
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I see no problem with holding an opinion that by and large anyone who sucessfully carries out suicide, in response to some problem they may have had or been perceived to have had, MADE THE WRONG DECISION. I see no problem in holding the opinion that they MADE A BAD DECISION.

Take this as someone projecting their morality on the situation if you like. Society may understand why for example a jealous boyfriend can come to the point of acting violently. It is not hard to see how people can become irrational with such emotions. Does it follow to argue from a point of rationalizing some such violent act on the grounds that a person simply isn't expected to make sound decisions in that state? I really can't understand where this sentiment seems to be coming from. Possibly I misinterpret the other side of the discussion. Is it really that unpalatable for some of you to consider a dogmatic concept of the complete and total non-viability of suicide as a useful solution to the overwhelming majority of life's crises?

I'm not very interested in statistics which deal in those who may have "considered" suicide. Those sort of thoughts aren't in themselves unnatural or unusual and I think it's most harmful when they are completely internalized because of taboo ect. It's a big, big stretch from mere contemplation to putting oneself in a position to commit. There are people who craft artful notes and then fail with a halfassed attempt, and there are people who skip right to the part where they put a rifle in their mouth.
 
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  • #45
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There are people who craft artful notes and then fail with a halfassed attempt, and there are people who skip right to the part where they put a rifle in their mouth.

Yes there are some that do. A famous lawyer, the prosecutor in the Blanch Taylor Moore case, simply walked out into traffic on a busy interstate highway.

Some people simply decide they are done with life.
 
  • #46
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Some people simply decide they are done with life.
And there is almost no hope of helping a person unless they can be made to care about helping themselves. A suicidal person who holds their own life in no value may have no other resort but to look for some hope in the value others might put in their lives. Without some other incentive (religious social you name it) suicide is always the selfish and easy way out.
 
  • #47
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Without some other incentive (religious social you name it) suicide is always the selfish and easy way out.
You can't say that and you don't know that. We here know people, great people, that have committed suicide and I'll thank you to keep your views to yourself, you have no way of knowing what every person that decides to end their life thinks or goes through.

I think it's time to end this thread.
 
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