Supermassive BHs: Forming Farthest Quasars

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the formation of supermassive black holes (BHs) and their relation to the farthest quasars. Participants explore thought experiments regarding the nature of black holes, their merging processes, and the implications of these events in the context of the early universe and the Big Bang.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a thought experiment where primordial black holes (BHs) merge while traveling close to the speed of light, suggesting that this could result in a significant increase in mass.
  • Another participant questions where the extra mass in the proposed merging scenario would originate from.
  • A different participant notes that the exterior of a black hole has a radius proportional to its mass, while the interior remains unknown, highlighting the conflict between relativity and quantum theory.
  • One participant argues that the Planck length is a unit of measure that incorporates the speed of light, suggesting that it is not inherently meaningful outside of this context.
  • Another participant describes a scenario in which a black hole forms from the mass of the entire universe during the Big Bang, leading to the creation of smaller black holes that merge over time into supermassive black holes.
  • A participant introduces the idea that gravity is emergent and did not exist before the first Planck time, proposing that this could affect the formation of black holes in the early universe.
  • In response to a question about mass conservation, one participant states that the extra mass from merging primordial micro black holes would come from conservation of energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various speculative ideas regarding black hole formation and merging, but there is no consensus on the mechanisms or implications discussed. Multiple competing views remain, particularly regarding the nature of mass increase during mergers and the role of gravity in the early universe.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in understanding the interior of black holes and the reconciliation of relativity with quantum theory. The discussion includes speculative scenarios that depend on assumptions about the early universe and the nature of black holes.

capnahab
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I know I am way out of my league but I have a thought experiment concerning BHs and I am trying to fathom super massive BHs with the limited amount of time for them to form to create the farthest Quasars. In my thought experiment I envision a black hole not to be a point but the Planck length in diameter. The BHs have no charge and are non rotating. If a primortial BH were traveling close to C and collided with another BH traveling close to C and collided at the exact center of each other I think they would merge and stop in space with a much larger amount of mass than BH1 and BH2 conbined. Probably a mass increase in the amount of billions of times BH1 and BH2 combined. I have read on this forum that singularities are not possible in nature. This is a dumb question but I think it is possible.
 
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capnahab said:
I know I am way out of my league but I have a thought experiment concerning BHs and I am trying to fathom super massive BHs with the limited amount of time for them to form to create the farthest Quasars. In my thought experiment I envision a black hole not to be a point but the Planck length in diameter. The BHs have no charge and are non rotating. If a primortial BH were traveling close to C and collided with another BH traveling close to C and collided at the exact center of each other I think they would merge and stop in space with a much larger amount of mass than BH1 and BH2 conbined. Probably a mass increase in the amount of billions of times BH1 and BH2 combined. I have read on this forum that singularities are not possible in nature. This is a dumb question but I think it is possible.
/

I know very little also, but where would your extra mass come from ?
 
The exterior of a black hole has a radius proportional to its mass. What is going on inside is unknown. Relativity and quantum theory cannot be reconciled. Singularity comes from relativity without taking quantum theory into account.
 
The Planck length is merely a convenient unit with respect to the speed of light. c is the only reliable constant in the Einstein version of our universe. Units of measure are otherwise meaningless. If you check the NST tables, you will notice Planck units incorporate a 'c' component in the calculation.
 
Thanks for responding to the layman. I kept the first post short because I enjoy, and am sure others do, reading short posts.

My thought experiment concerns the Big Bang. In the first few moments of creation I envision a Black Hole growing out of nothing that has the entire mass of our universe. In these first few moments this single large Black Hole changes into a lot of mini/micro black holes before matter is formed. During these first few moments these small Black Holes are colliding and merging enough to form even larger ones and then even larger ones until finally some become so massive as to to create the super massive Black Holes that we can detect from the farthest Quasars. Once the infant universe got a little larger the merging stopped. Most of the micro/mini Black Holes would evaporate during these first few moments creating the energy to keep pushing outward.
 
Aye, but here is the rub . . . gravity is emergent. It does not exist before the first Planck tick of time in the big bang model. By the 'time' gravity emerges in our observable universe, the universe is inflating too rapidly for gravity to repent. Perhaps our universe made a nigh infinite number of attempts to 'big bang' its way into existence, but, gravity only let its guard down during the last cycle . . . an 'asleep at the wheel' explanation.
 
In answer to wolram, when the primortial micro BHs collided from opposite directions at the direct center and merged the extra mass would come from conservation of energy.
 

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