News Is renting a better option for building a good credit score?

[Vanadium 50]

Yes, but if the government goes on an advertising spree to try and enroll more people, how do you know what the cause of the changing demographic of recipients is?

 

[russ_watters]

The issue isn't just about the total dollars spent. It is about the changing demographics of those using food stamps.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/USA-Up...are-college-grads-half-are-working-age.-video

Those stats just tell me that the program is way, way too big.

 

[edward]

Yes, but if the government goes on an advertising spree to try and enroll more people, how do you know what the cause of the changing demographic of recipients is?

Lets be realistic. We know what the cause of the changing demographic is. JOBS or lack thereof and Low Pay.

My neighbor is an electrical engineer. On November 15th he and 224 other engineers unexpectedly received their pink slips at Raytheon Missile Systems Tucson. He had been at Raytheon since 2006.

He is living off of his 401 K. He will have to leave town to find work. His home will not bring in nearly enough rent to make the payment and he certainly can't sell it for what he owes on it. If he goes through a foreclosure he will lose one of his most valuable assets, his security clearance.

More than 33,000 food stamp recipients hold accredited PhD or JD degrees in USA

http://www.examiner.com/article/mor...ipients-hold-accredited-phd-or-jd-degrees-usa

edited

 

[SixNein]

http://news.yahoo.com/face-food-stamps-working-age-americans-155417479.html
Hmmmm. Doesn't seem that the fundamentals of the economy are very good - still.

Honestly, I think it's very hard to tell because we are experiencing a major change in the way the world works. And as such, it's very hard to predict where we are going. But there are a few problems that do merit attention. Of particular concern, the rising inequality is a serious problem. But the availability of cheap goods and easy credit seems to have dampened the social response. At the same time, a great deal of credit is being used to prop some of it up. For example, a lot of people cannot afford a college education; however, they are obtaining it with credit. And in a lot of cases, it turns out to be an unproductive use of credit.

 

[klimatos]

In many European countries life-time renting is the norm, it's not the end of the world not to buy a house.

You are absolutely correct. Most Europeans, even the middle and upper-middle classes rent. However, home purchase is more difficult there than here. Mortgages are difficult to obtain, and usually require a substantial portion of the purchase price down. Houses are expensive. My youngest daughter lives in London, and her house in Radlett would sell for about five times her purchase price here in northern California.

Also, land ownership is more complicated there. Many British homeowners do not own the land their house stands on. It is owned by some noble family, and they pay an annual lease fee. The lease is usually transferred with the house title. The contracts are often for 100 years, and few home buyers can be found when the lease nears its termination date.

 

[SixNein]

Lets be realistic. We know what the cause of the changing demographic is. JOBS or lack thereof and Low Pay.

I made a thread on this topic a very long time ago, and I'm going to resurrect the gist of it here since its relevant to the discussion.

First and foremost, I don't think the cause of the changing demographic is jobs and low pay; instead, I think that is just a symptom. The real cause, in my opinion, is our ability to replace people with code, computers, and some engineering. For example, a lot of people complain about the loss of manufacturing jobs in America. Many are under the impression that those jobs are going some where else like China; however, they are simply disappearing. Robots are taking the places people once held. Automotive companies for example are getting closer and closer to fully automating the construction of their cars. The process of constructing those cars use to require a lot of people, and now it only requires a small amount. As companies shed these jobs, the people end up competing for what is left, and so labor prices drop.

The real question imo is what to do with with the growing human population in a world of automation.

 

[Dotini]

The real question imo is what to do with with the growing human population in a world of automation.

The last thing needed is for a growing population of surplus humans to grow restive and begin to make trouble. Accordingly, it may be wise to continue the trend for high quality entertainments, drugs, rich foods, sports and pastimes to be made available for purposes of distraction. Prophylactic surveillance and gun control measures would appear to be appropriate. Some shepherding of the self-help industry and religious belief system may be in order.

"a peaceful land, a quiet people" --- creed of Lord Roose Bolton, A Game of Thrones

 

[edward]

First and foremost, I don't think the cause of the changing demographic is jobs and low pay; instead, I think that is just a symptom. The real cause, in my opinion, is our ability to replace people with code, computers, and some engineering. For example, a lot of people complain about the loss of manufacturing jobs in America. Many are under the impression that those jobs are going some where else like China; however, they are simply disappearing. Robots are taking the places people once held. Automotive companies for example are getting closer and closer to fully automating the construction of their cars. The process of constructing those cars use to require a lot of people, and now it only requires a small amount. As companies shed these jobs, the people end up competing for what is left, and so labor prices drop.

The real question imo is what to do with with the growing human population in a world of automation.

I can agree with everything you say above. However we got hit with a terrible economic blow right in the midst of it all.

In this thread we had gotten off on to the food stamp program and I wanted to show how some well educated people are having to use it now as an example of a changing demographic.

As far as global competition we have to adapt not surrender. We set around wearing clothing ,right down to our underwear, that is made in a communist country and yet complain about government programs meant to help people weather the storm, being too socialist.

The investment banks were bailed out and are doing fine. That is not true for the middle class.
The stimulus was a bust. Much of it apparently went to the wrong organizations.

I mentioned Whirlpool sending refrigerator production to Mexico putting thousands out of work. And they did it right after receiving millions in stimulus money.

We need to spend the money in the right places. Germany has done the best at adapting so far. And they did it by training workers, not sending money to big companies hoping that they will hire unskilled workers.

The last bastion of journeyman level trade workers are still coming from what is left of the unions.

https://www.google.com/#q=unions+train+workers+to+journeyman+level

That wasn't meant as a plug for the unions it was an example of what the government needs to do if we are to compete in a global market, and give us back our American dream.

 

[SixNein]

I can agree with everything you say above. However we got hit with a terrible economic blow right in the midst of it all.

In this thread we had gotten off on to the food stamp program and I wanted to show how some well educated people are having to use it now as an example of a changing demographic.

As far as global competition we have to adapt not surrender. We set around wearing clothing ,right down to our underwear, that is made in a communist country and yet complain about government programs meant to help people weather the storm, being too socialist.

The investment banks were bailed out and are doing fine. That is not true for the middle class.
The stimulus was a bust. Much of it apparently went to the wrong organizations.

I mentioned Whirlpool sending refrigerator production to Mexico putting thousands out of work. And they did it right after receiving millions in stimulus money.

We need to spend the money in the right places. Germany has done the best at adapting so far. And they did it by training workers, not sending money to big companies hoping that they will hire unskilled workers.

The last bastion of journeyman level trade workers are still coming from what is left of the unions.

https://www.google.com/#q=unions+train+workers+to+journeyman+level

That wasn't meant as a plug for the unions it was an example of what the government needs to do if we are to compete in a global market, and give us back our American dream.

But what I'm saying is that there isn't too many safe jobs out there. Automation can replace what most people do. For example, there is a lot of business analysis people who may over time find themselves unemployed thanks to machine learning algorithms. Why hire a bunch of them when a computer can do the job faster, better, and cheaper? Computer science is just now shifting over to a data prospective. And a lot of people who currently think their safe might find themselves competing for that fast food job.

http://www.technologyreview.com/featuredstory/515926/how-technology-is-destroying-jobs/

And it's important to realize that even dirt cheap labor is unable to compete with automation. If china is shedding manufacturing jobs to automation (link in other post above), there isn't much chance of an American doing any better.

In a basic nutshell, I don't think it's as simple as spending or saving money. America could try to be a leader in technology by making some real infrastructure upgrades and breaking up the regional monopolies over the internet. But it doesn't seem to be going in that direction; instead, net neutrality itself is in danger. And as I said before, computer science is turning into a data centric field.

But even if America sets up well for the shift in CS and attracts international business, I don't see a big boom from it. America will be attracting companies with robots as opposed to companies needing to hire local people.

 

[mheslep]

I've worked in robotics and machine learning, and I don't think it is remotely true that automation has reached a point where it can, *today*, replace what the majority of humans do. Instead, automation will likely continue to enter at the margins as it has, accelerated when and where wage levels are artificially raised.

Even so, history has produced waves of machinery driven employment shifts in the past. A 150 years ago, it was true that machinery could replace the majority of labor when the majority the US population was engaged in agriculture. What happened instead is that agricultural productivity grew while agriculture labor did not, enabling new population growth to exist off the farm in other occupations previously not imagined.

 

[Astronuc]

This may apply locally or regionally, but - Jobs, yes, but they're mostly low pay
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/story/news/local/2014/08/31/high-pay-jobs-shrink/14915087/

"For every one job created that pays below-average wages, Dutchess County lost 2.5 jobs that pay above-average private-sector wages," said Christy Huebner Caridi, an economics professor at Marist College and head of its Bureau of Economic Research.

Specifically, during the six-year period ending in 2013, there was job growth of 2,404 jobs in sectors that had below-average pay scales. But there was a loss of 5,935 jobs in the above-average categories.

For the Hudson Valley region, the story was similar, with 1.4 high-pay jobs lost for every lower-paying one created.

The Hudson Valley extends from north of NY City to somewhat north of Albany. It used to be a main manufacturing area in the nation. Much of the manufacturing moved south to less expensive areas in Carolinas, SE and Gulf Coast.

 

[edpell]

Astronuc, there used to be 33,000 full time regular IBMers in the Hudson Valley. Now 3,000. There are more part timers, retired coming back to work for less pay, H1B visas. The Indians who can not afford cars walk in large groups to and from work. The board manufacturing that used to happen in Endicott NY (more the Mohawk Valley) is now done in Mexico. The mainframe manufacture that used to make machines of 1000sqft area now makes machines of 10 sqft area and much more compute power. There are far fewer parts and it takes far fewer workers and it is no longer done in Poughkeepsie, NY. Not clear where it is done now, that seems to be a secret. Storage sub-systems are manufactured in Slovakia, shipped to Puerto Rico, where a label that says made in America is added, then shipped to US customer. Welcome to the global village, more like the global slum. IP that was paid for by DARPA is domiciled in the Cayman Islands so when foreign subsidiaries (i.e. IBM UK) pay patent royalties to IBM they are not taxable.

 

[edpell]

For me the big issue is the cost of primary energy. With Goldman Sacks saying $120/barrel is needed for the oil companies to breakeven. Capex of oil companies is up 300% over the last 10 years.

 

[edward]

For many, and that means millions, they will never recover what they lost during the recession.

Rutgers University researchers found more than a third of workers report their finances have been permanently injured by the recession, with 16 percent of Americans, or 38 million people, reporting they were financially devastated and expect that damage to be permanent.

http://www.post-gazette.com/busines...ing-ground/stories/201408310128#ixzz3CE1uBJOh

Another report by the Economic Policy Institute, a Washington, D.C-based policy research group, issued in time for the Labor Day holiday found American workers haven’t had a pay raise in 35 years. A look at wages since 1947 found that, from 1947 to 1979, annual family incomes grew across the board between 2.2 percent and 2.5 percent.

Then, from 1979 to 2007, those in the bottom fifth of household income saw no change, adjusted for inflation. The second, third and fourth-fifths saw their income grow at less than 1 percent a year.

There is a link to the Rutgers study in the posted link above.

 

[russ_watters]

For many, and that means millions, they will never recover what they lost during the recession.

...or, at least, they don't think they will. Of course, another way to look at it would be that they only lost what they gained in the '90s...and are now getting the gains back (2013 numbers out later this month).

 

[edward]

...or, at least, they don't think they will. Of course, another way to look at it would be that they only lost what they gained in the '90s...and are now getting the gains back (2013 numbers out later this month).

I really wish that what you think about what American workers possibly don't think was true. I just don't se it that way.

Jobs are still moving in the wrong direction and in too many sectors.

This statement sounds good:

Romulo, chair of the House committee on higher and technical education and a backer of the industry, said in a press statement Wednesday that BPO companies would play an important role in providing jobs especially to college graduates.

“Based on sectoral projections, we are confident that BPO firms will be able to add an average of 124,000 well-paying jobs annually from 2014 to 2016, or a total of 372,000 new posts over the next three years,” Romulo said.

Unfortunately Romulo is a congressman in the Philippines, BP is business processing, and BPO is business processes. And yes I realize that some already understood these terms, I post it is for those who did not. http://business.inquirer.net/158471/call-centers-to-provide-more-jobs-in-2014-says-congressman

Recently my wife realized that the hard copy of her BOA checking account statements were not coming. The local branch manager was able to determine that the statements were going to the wrong address. He closed her account and opened a new one. He also told us that he no longer had anyway to directly contact BOA data processing.

BOA data processing along with the BP of dozens of banks is now done in the Philippines.

Even our coveted $8 per hour call center jobs are going to the Philippines albeit India is losing some of them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_center_industry_in_the_Philippines

But the jobs impact of the China trade deficit is not restricted to job loss and displacement. Competition with low-wage workers from less-developed countries such as China has driven down wages for workers in U.S. manufacturing and reduced the wages and bargaining power of similar, non-college-educated workers throughout the economy. The affected population includes essentially all workers with less than a four-year college degree—roughly 70 percent of the workforce, or about 100 million workers (U.S. Census Bureau 2012b).

It may be the lower paid workers who are most affected by outsourcing to China, but it isn't just low tech products that are being produced there.

Global trade in advanced technology products—often discussed as a source of comparative advantage for the United States—is instead dominated by China. This broad category of high-end technology products includes the more advanced elements of the computer and electronic products industry as well as other sectors such as biotechnology, life sciences, aerospace, and nuclear technology. In 2011, the United States had a $109.4 billion deficit in advanced technology products with China, which was responsible for 36.3 percent of the total U.S.-China trade deficit. In contrast, the United States had a $9.7 billion surplus in advanced technology products with the rest of the world in 2011.

http://www.epi.org/publication/bp345-china-growing-trade-deficit-cost/

I have been observing for the last twenty years how gradually the outsourcing situation, which started as a trickle, has beaten us down to a level we never would have allowed had it happened suddenly.

We have given away the goose that laid the golden egg. Then again after several generations have passed few will realize that great grandpa, and great grandma had a much better , and higher quality of life than they will ever experience.

It makes me think of my younger years in reverse, when I was reminded how much better things were for me than for my grandparents.

 

[russ_watters]

I really wish that what you think about what American workers possibly don't think was true. I just don't se it that way.

Jobs are still moving in the wrong direction and in too many sectors.

The inherent flaw in such studies is that perception and reality aren't required to be linked to each other. So while it can be interesting to see what people think, it doesn't necessarily tell us how things are.

I have been observing for the last twenty years how gradually the outsourcing situation, which started as a trickle, has beaten us down to a level we never would have allowed had it happened suddenly.

That is indeed an example of a common perception that has little to do with reality. The unemployment rate is in fact near exactly the same as it was 20 years ago, while for most of those 20 years (until 4 years ago) it was, by historical standards, very low through even the ups and downs of two economic cycles. There is no long-term decline in jobs happening, whether caused by outsourcing or anything else.
http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

 

[SteamKing]

The inherent flaw in such studies is that perception and reality aren't required to be linked to each other. So while it can be interesting to see what people think, it doesn't necessarily tell us how things are.

That is indeed an example of a common perception that has little to do with reality. The unemployment rate is in fact near exactly the same as it was 20 years ago, while for most of those 20 years (until 4 years ago) it was, by historical standards, very low through even the ups and downs of two economic cycles.
http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

You can't always go strictly by the unemployment rate, especially as reported by the government. The UR gives a quick snapshot, an easy sound-bite for politicians to bandy about, but it doesn't include people who have given up looking for a job and have remained more or less constantly unemployed. It is possible to have both a low UR and have large numbers of people who are out of work for whatever reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#United_States_Bureau_of_Labor_statistics

Recently, a new wrinkle has been added to the employment picture in the US, where formerly full-time workers have had their hours cut to below 29 per week, so as not to count as 'full-time equivalents' under the ACA. These people were formerly working 40 or more hours a week but were cut-back to part-time work. How is that scored in the UR?

 

[russ_watters]

You can't always go strictly by the unemployment rate, especially as reported by the government. The UR gives a quick snapshot, an easy sound-bite for politicians to bandy about, but it doesn't include people who have given up looking for a job and have remained more or less constantly unemployed. It is possible to have both a low UR and have large numbers of people who are out of work for whatever reason.

Typically, they move opposite to each other for obvious reasons, but yes, there can be long-term trends in participation rate. These get complicated though due to changing demographics such as the Baby Boomers' in-progress retirements. And more complicated due to the choices of women to be or not to be in the workforce (which is likely why it rose for 25 years, starting in the 1960s). And all of that is on-top of changes due to people too disillusioned to look for work.

In the current climate, workforce participation is indeed pretty low compared to its peak in the 1990s:
http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/images/toossifigure1.png

During the 1970s and 1980s, the labor force grew vigorously as women’s labor force participation rates surged and the baby-boom generation entered the labor market. However, the dynamic demographic, economic, and social forces that once spurred the level, growth, and composition of the labor force have changed and are now damping labor force growth. The labor force participation rate of women, which peaked in 1999, has been on a declining trend. In addition, instead of entering the labor force, baby boomers are retiring in large numbers and exiting the workforce. Once again, the baby-boom generation has become a generator of change, this time in its retirement. Moreover, the jobless recovery of the 2001 recession, coupled with the severe economic impact of the 2007–2009 recession, caused disruptions in the labor market. In the first 12 years of the 21st century, the growth of the population has slowed and labor force participation rates generally have declined. As a result, labor force growth also has slowed. The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) projects that the next 10 years will bring about an aging labor force that is growing slowly, a declining overall labor force participation rate, and more diversity in the racial and ethnic composition of the labor force.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/article/labor-force-projections-to-2022-the-labor-force-participation-rate-continues-to-fall-1.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unemployment#United_States_Bureau_of_Labor_statistics

The actual number of people who choose to exit the workforce due to being discouraged is also tracked and as expected, it is dropping drastically due to the lower unemployment rate:

In July, 2.2 million persons were marginally attached to the labor force, down by 236,000
from a year earlier. (The data are not seasonally adjusted.) These individuals were not in
the labor force, wanted and were available for work, and had looked for a job sometime in
the prior 12 months. They were not counted as unemployed because they had not searched for
work in the 4 weeks preceding the survey. (See table A-16.)

Among the marginally attached, there were 741,000 discouraged workers in July, down by
247,000 from a year earlier. (The data are not seasonally adjusted.) Discouraged workers
are persons not currently looking for work because they believe no jobs are available for
them. The remaining 1.4 million persons marginally attached to the labor force in July had
not searched for work for reasons such as school attendance or family responsibilities.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm

Recently, a new wrinkle has been added to the employment picture in the US, where formerly full-time workers have had their hours cut to below 29 per week, so as not to count as 'full-time equivalents' under the ACA. These people were formerly working 40 or more hours a week but were cut-back to part-time work. How is that scored in the UR?

It isn't. But it is measured by the BLS and has recovered since the recession:
http://data.bls.gov/generated_files/graphics/CES0500000002_46871_1409798788252.gif
http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref2

 

[edward]

The inherent flaw in such studies is that perception and reality aren't required to be linked to each other. So while it can be interesting to see what people think, it doesn't necessarily tell us how things are.

That is indeed an example of a common perception that has little to do with reality. The unemployment rate is in fact near exactly the same as it was 20 years ago, while for most of those 20 years (until 4 years ago) it was, by historical standards, very low through even the ups and downs of two economic cycles. There is no long-term decline in jobs happening, whether caused by outsourcing or anything else.
http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

I don't believe that I had even mentioned the unemployment rate.

I really don't see the how your statistics reflect the OP in any way. The American dream isn't just a perception. People actually know when the American dream changes and when the economy is affecting their lives without any statistics to help them decide.

Then again I suppose that I use statistics to try to convince people that the American dream needs to be put on life support and you use the statistics to reassure them that it doesn't. Am I getting more philosophical or just older?

 

[russ_watters]

I don't believe that I had even mentioned the unemployment rate.

No, you said this:

I have been observing for the last twenty years how gradually the outsourcing situation, which started as a trickle, has beaten us down to a level we never would have allowed had it happened suddenly.

If that were true, it would show-up somewhere in some statistics. I chose unemployment rate, but there are several others (as SteamKing and I discussed). It doesn't. This problem is a figment of your imagination.

But in either case, it was your claim, not mine, so you really should be trying to find the statistics to support it instead of leaving it to me to disprove it.

I really don't see the how your statistics reflect the OP in any way.

I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to you.

People actually know when the American dream changes and when the economy is affecting their lives without any statistics to help them decide.

People are notoriously bad at aligning perception with reality. But in either case, if the reality is what is claimed, the statistics should show it. It is better to directly measure something than to guess. And since the statistics exist, there really is no excuse for not using them.

Then again I suppose that I use statistics to try to convince people that the American dream needs to be put on life support and you use the statistics to reassure them that it doesn't.

You provided statistics about perceptions about the economy when you could have provided statistics about the economy.

 

[SteamKing]

More worrisome is that the recent recession has affected the employment of people in the 25-54 age group, which can't be explained away by retirements.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...why-are-people-dropping-out-of-the-workforce/

Now, you can say that the older workers in this group have gone away for whatever reasons, but the problem comes about when workers in the 25-35 year old group are discouraged or drop out. These are the years when a person gets started in a career and begins approaching his peak earning years. If careers don't get established, it affects your earning ability for the rest of your life and the ability to save for a retirement which one may never be able to realize. And if people are not working and paying taxes, what happens to the rest of the social safety net, like Social Security, Medicare, etc.? These programs were teetering on the brink of fiscal insolvency before the recession; having more people availing themselves of their services, as the boomers retire en-masse, with fewer workers and employers paying payroll taxes just moves the dates of disaster that much closer to the present.

Now because of dithering, if not malicious intent on the part of the administration, we are about to have large swathes of Central and South America over for a slumber party of indeterminate length, which will further erode participation in the labor market by the native-born. Our neighbors have already started dropping their kids off on our door step; when will the rest of them show up for cake and coffee with their hosts?

 

[russ_watters]

More worrisome is that the recent recession has affected the employment of people in the 25-54 age group, which can't be explained away by retirements.

84-81% since the '90s is not a drop I find big enough to be "worrisome". Depending on the causes, the 54-34% drop for 16-19 year olds or the 78-71% drop for 20-24 year-olds might be more worrisome. If these drops are because kids are staying in school that might be a good thing -- unless they are getting more education than they need. But a loss of summer work combined with higher student loan debt could be very bad for their path to prosperity, because:

If careers don't get established, it affects your earning ability for the rest of your life and the ability to save for a retirement which one may never be able to realize.

Agreed. Getting off on the right foot when you are in your 20s is key.

And if people are not working and paying taxes, what happens to the rest of the social safety net, like Social Security, Medicare, etc.? These programs were teetering on the brink of fiscal insolvency before the recession; having more people availing themselves of their services, as the boomers retire en-masse, with fewer workers and employers paying payroll taxes just moves the dates of disaster that much closer to the present.

Agreed, except that I'm much more pessimistic. I think the typically cited "dates of disaster" are red-herrings and that by a more realistic/useful measure (comparing the ROI of SS vs what it once was or what an IRA can give, for example) we passed "disaster" decades ago. That's for another thread though...

 

[edward]

No, you said this:

If that were true, it would show-up somewhere in some statistics. I chose unemployment rate, but there are several others (as SteamKing and I discussed). It doesn't. This problem is a figment of your imagination.

But in either case, it was your claim, not mine, so you really should be trying to find the statistics to support it instead of leaving it to me to disprove it.

I wasn't responding to the OP, I was responding to you.

People are notoriously bad at aligning perception with reality. But in either case, if the reality is what is claimed, the statistics should show it. It is better to directly measure something than to guess. And since the statistics exist, there really is no excuse for not using them.

You provided statistics about perceptions about the economy when you could have provided statistics about the economy.

You can pick it apart all you want but you appear to be the one refusing to look at reality. The man below is facing a reality that you won't find in any statistical analysis. It is not erroneously perceived.

This man's changing American dream is the American nightmare. And it isn't an isolated case.

When Joe DeGrella’s construction company failed, he met with a federally funded counselor, who “provided him with a list of job titles the Labor Department determined to be in high demand,” reports the Times. He chose a college certified to offer job training and received a federal retraining grant.

Two years studying to be a cardiology technician at Daymar College, a for-profit in Louisville, left him with $20,000 in debt and no job. Now 57, he moved into his sister’s basement and works at an AutoZone.

About 21 million jobless people entered retraining at community colleges, vocational and business schools, and four-year universities in 2012.

http://communitycollegespotlight.org/tags/debt/

Edit. Yes I do realize that: "At least he is not unemployed."

 

[russ_watters]

You can pick it apart all you want but you appear to be the one refusing to look at reality. The man below is facing a reality that you won't find in any statistical analysis. It is not erroneously perceived.

This man's changing American dream is the American nightmare. And it isn't an isolated case.

That last sentence is precisely what you need to provide statistics to prove.

The key problem with perception vs reality is that these stories come from the news and bad news tends to sell better than good news and sticks with us more. So it creates a false impression of the prevalence of what is being reported.

 

[Dotini]

In Seattle in the 1960's, a man with a high school diploma could go to work at Boeing or Fisher Flour Mill, then expect to buy and pay off a house, have a stay-at-home wife, a muscle car, and maybe a fishing cabin and boat. I know I did, living the dream.

 

[OmCheeto]

In Seattle in the 1960's, a man with a high school diploma could go to work at Boeing or Fisher Flour Mill, then expect to buy and pay off a house, have a stay-at-home wife, a muscle car, and maybe a fishing cabin and boat. I know I did, living the dream.

In the mid 1980's, you could also have come from Kansas, with $125,000, which was half of your inheritance, invested it in Microsoft, and now be worth $50,000,000.

This is what I recall from my friends comments about her brother. He's since been divorced, and worth somewhat less now.

ps. I had dinner in the oven last night, but after reading edward's post, I went out for sushi. The owner had moved here about 25 years ago from Japan. He has, according to my brother, the most respected sushi restaurant in town. I do not doubt that. I expected that he not be there, as he'd been talking of retiring. He was there.

pps. This morning, I threw last night's oven dinner into the recycle bin. It is gone. blech!

ppps. The "Changing American Dream", is, like all dreams, quite dynamic.

 

[mheslep]

Yes, here:

Recall that mfn employment is down, a traditional source of blue collar jobs, even while mfn output is strongly up.

 

[mheslep]

More worrisome is that the recent recession has affected the employment of people in the 25-54 age group, which can't be explained away by retirements

Retirements of boomers are not responsible for the decline in the labor force *rate*. The statistics make themselves blind to regular retirements by defining working age. Boomer retirement accounts for reduction in absolute size, not rate. Millions of working age simply dropped out of the work force during the bust and so far they are not coming back on a trend anywhere close to restoring the pre-bust rate. This means that unemployment rates of now and twenty years ago are not strictly comparable. Data below is current through July this year.https://research.stlouisfed.org/fredgraph.jpg?hires=1&type=image/jpeg&chart_type=line&recession_bars=on&log_scales=&bgcolor=%23e1e9f0&graph_bgcolor=%23black&fo=verdana&ts=12&tts=12&txtcolor=%23444444&show_legend=yes&show_axis_titles=yes&drp=0&cosd=2004-04-29&coed=2013-10-27&width=670&height=445&stacking=&range=Custom&mode=fred&id=CIVPART&transformation=lin&nd=&ost=-99999&oet=99999&scale=left&line_color=%234572a7&line_style=solid&lw=2&mark_type=none&mw=1&mma=0&fml=a&fgst=lin&fq=Monthly&fam=avg&vintage_date=&revision_date=I suspect the jump in disability claims of those still of working age, two year terms of unemployment benefits, and difficulties encountered by small business in this economy have some significant responsibility for those who have simply dropped out the game.

 

[edward]

Quote by edward

You can pick it apart all you want but you appear to be the one refusing to look at reality. The man below is facing a reality that you won't find in any statistical analysis. It is not erroneously perceived.

This man's changing American dream is the American nightmare. And it isn't an isolated case.

That last sentence is precisely what you need to provide statistics to prove.

This former contractor is living in his sisters basement. He doesn't need any statistics to asses his situation. He is the "Joe the Plumber" of the Changing American dream.

The key problem with perception vs reality is that these stories come from the news and bad news tends to sell better than good news and sticks with us more. So it creates a false impression of the prevalence of what is being reported.

This type of story is everywhere I look and in everything I read. It is not an isolated case. The news media uses the same sources as the data collectors do in addition to some that the data collectors don't use.

Fed survey: 40% of households show signs of financial stress

SOURCE:
http://www.latimes.com/business/jobs/la-fi-financial-stress-20140807-story.html