Concept
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However the bell curve was funded, it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong.
http://goinside.com/98/3/postmod.html
http://goinside.com/98/3/postmod.html
Are you really going to make this a copy and paste war? Alright here.Concept said:However the bell curve was funded, it doesn't change the fact that it was wrong.
http://goinside.com/98/3/postmod.html
BlackVision, your lack of knowledge of the real world outside your own backyard is evident, you don't know what you are talking about. You're really embarrassing yourself. End of this subject also, your comments are senseless and immature.BlackVision said:Ok. Do you have any logical sense at all? If the richest neighborhood in America has a median house value under $2 million, and you're stating that in your neighorhood houses START at $2 million. Do you honestly think that makes any sense at all? Logic is obviously a lost concept on you.
And oh yeah cause celebrities in Beverly Hills don't have 100s of acres and have tennis courts, water fountains, etc. Yeah you know cause celebrities don't like to live large.
And the MAIN value of a house is location. A rural unincorporated area? Talk about a codeword for a redneck zone. Yeah cause we all know of the such extraordinary high demand for such an area.
Yeah, I said you were wrong, I never said that the Washington Post link was tainted, I never even mentioned the Washingtoon Post, you just proved me correct.BlackVision said:Post #90 "My article on IQ heritability WAS from the Washington Post. YOU were stating that my sources were tainted."--BlackVision
Your DIRECT response to this quote.
Post #93 "WRONG. You really cannot read, can you?"--you
Again I must laugh at you.
EVO said:Originally posted by BlackVision - Source: http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstrea...hard-twins.html
Originally posted by Evo - Your source is a racist/eugenics website. Super. As a matter of fact, all of your links contain publications by known racists/eugenicists and many have connections to the Pioneer Fund.
Ok, now I’m wondering why on Earth is he bringing this up, this wasn’t mentioned in the post I responded to.BlackVision said:Post #87
And Washington Post is an extremely liberal newspaper.
Evo said:Post #89 I didn't quote anything from the Washington Post.
Which made no sense to me because I hadn’t read any of your previous posts and there was no mention of the Washington Post in your post #82 that I was responding to. You were obviously confused. So I replied that you were wrong because I have never mentioned anything about a Washington Post article or link. Here is my replyBlackVision said:Post #90 My article on IQ heritability WAS from the Washington Post. YOU were stating that my sources were tainted.
(in the post I was discussing #82, why you would think I was referring to a link in a previous post I’d never mentioned?)Evo said:post #93 WRONG. You really cannot read, can you? Here it is again, so you may read it. Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackVision
Source: http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstrea...hard-twins.html
Originally posted by Evo - Your source is a racist/eugenics website. Super. As a matter of fact, all of your links contain publications by known racists/eugenicists and many have connections to the Pioneer Fund. Phillipe Rushton is currently president of the Pioneer Fund. If you had reading comprehension skills, you would note first that I was referring to the source of the mugu.com website and the rest of the LINKS you posted.
I am not talking about this post, never have, so why do you keep bringing it up?BlackVision said:post #94 Wow YOU can't read can you? Let me repost my first source.
"These statistics have shown that on average, identical twins tend to be around 80 percent the same in everything from stature to health to IQ to political views. The similarities are partly the product of similar upbringing. But evidence from the comparison of twins raised apart points rather convincingly to genes as the source of a lot of that likeness."
"identical twins are roughly 85 percent similar for IQ, fraternal twins about 60 percent."
Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-sr...wins/twins2.htm
Anyone familiar with The Bell Curve knows that although it lists a lot of references, the study was based primarily on just a few studies.BlackVision said:Do you have any idea how many sources the Bell Curve cites? It cites literally thousands. To say it's tainted cause a couple of sources such as Arthur Jensen is cited, (how the hell do you not make a IQ book without citing him) is quite ridiculous. So the thousands of other cites all of a sudden become irrelevant?
Botton line. The Bell Curve had no obligation to the Pioneer Fund. And it's work didn't even revolve around psychologists that received Pioneer Fund money.
BlackVision said:Are you really going to make this a copy and paste war? Alright here.
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~cfc/Chabris1998a.html
I think it's better if you post your own thoughts on the matter though
BlackVision said:But if that article wasn't good enough for you, here you go.
"Like the prior, smaller studies of monozygotic twins reared apart, about 70% of the variance in IQ was found to be associated with genetic variation."
Source: http://www.mugu.com/cgi-bin/Upstream/Issues/psychology/IQ/bouchard-twins.html
"Particularly noteworthy are the heritabilities of around 80% found in adult twins reared apart"
Source: http://danny.oz.au/communities/anthro-l/debates/race-iq/
"Monozygotic Twins raised apart had a 74% correlation in IQ. Adopted childs had a 20% correlation in IQ"
Source: http://www.canberra.edu.au/uc/lectures/scides/sem992/unit4311/Lecture5.html
Evo said:The Bell Curve also relies heavily on the research of Richard Lynn, described by the authors as "a leading scholar of racial and ethnic differences." As one example of Lynn's scholarship, consider this quote, cited in Newsday, November 9, 1994:
"What is called for here is not genocide, the killing off of the population of incompetent cultures. But we do need to think realistically in terms of ‘phasing out' such peoples…Evolutionary progress means the extinction of the less competent. To think otherwise is mere sentimentality."
This sounds like Cattell also, but perhaps in this latter case Lynn actually meant to express these as his own ideas.Lynn has also explained, that in his opinion, "…the poor and the ill are weak specimens whose proliferation needs to be discouraged in the interests of the improvement of the genetic quality of the group, and ultimately of group survival," and that "the Caucasoid and the Mongoloids are the only two races that have made any significant contribution to civilization,"
Actually my post is attributed to an interview with Newsday in Jan 1994, but you are right, it looks similar. Ok, so let's add this to make it a correct statement. In summarizing Professor Cattell's book, Richard Lynn said "What is called for here is not genocide, but the killing off of the population of incompetent cultures. But we do need to think realistically in terms of the 'phasing out' of such peoples . . . Evolutionary progress means the extinction of the less competent."hitssquad said:
- http://www.pioneerfund.org/Gordon.pdf published in the Bulletin of the British Psychological Society. Professor Lynn, who was not contacted by ABC, informed me that the sentences quoted by ABC were the views of the book's author, and not an expression of his own opinion at all.
On February 16th, 1990, only one day after his appearance in the Big Rapids Pioneer, Professor Mehler himself gave a rambling presentation at the annual meeting of the American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS), from which it was quite clear that he understood fully that Richard Lynn's words had been intended to summarize the Cattell book for a book review (there are other forms of scientific articles called "reviews").
At the AAAS meeting, Professor Mehler's exact words were: "Richard Lynn is summarizing the book. It's in a review that he wrote . . . and he says: 'See what we are talking about here is not genocide . . . . ' " Three months later, however, on May 14, 1990, Professor Mehler was again informing the world, or at least the television audience of the Donahue show (transcript #2945), that "Richard Lynn writes a review . . . in which . . . he says--and this is almost a quote--what we're talking here about is 'phasing out incompetent societies.'" Neither Professor Cattell's name nor the name of his book was mentioned on this occasion, and the possible significance of the single word "review" was surely lost on Mr. Donahue and his audience.
How to Debate When You Have Absolutely No Case:Evo said:BlackVision, your lack of knowledge of the real world outside your own backyard is evident, you don't know what you are talking about. You're really embarrassing yourself. End of this subject also, your comments are senseless and immature.
Yeah, I said you were wrong, I never said that the Washington Post link was tainted, I never even mentioned the Washingtoon Post, you just proved me correct.
I will post from the beginning and maybe you will see your error.
My first post was in response to your post #82 containing 3 links. Post #86
To which you responded with this comment:Ok, now I’m wondering why on Earth is he bringing this up, this wasn’t mentioned in the post I responded to.
To which I replied
To which you replied: :Which made no sense to me because I hadn’t read any of your previous posts and there was no mention of the Washington Post in your post #82 that I was responding to. You were obviously confused. So I replied that you were wrong because I have never mentioned anything about a Washington Post article or link. Here is my reply (in the post I was discussing #82, why you would think I was referring to a link in a previous post I’d never mentioned?)
Which you then posted a blurb from a post you had made before my first post, one that I keep telling you I am not referring to I am not talking about this post, never have, so why do you keep bringing it up?
BlackVision, I keep telling you I have NEVER mentioned a post of yours that was about the Washington Post, yet you keep accusing me of telling you it doesn’t exist, or that I said it was tainted, what is your problem? For the FINAL time – I HAVE NEVER DISCUSSED YOUR POST ABOUT THE WASHINGTON POST. SO STOP BRINGING IT UP.
Yeah cause if I DON'T list sources, I will get bombarded with people asking for them.Concept said:5 pages ago:
hey kettle, you're black.
Amazing, I have NEVER posted anything about the Washington Post except to keep telling you I am NOT REFERRING TO IT.BlackVision said:Ok you are obviously confused. No, you are. I listed several sources for IQ heritability. Washington Post was one of them. I never saw that post, and I never responded to it. You kept trying to say all my sources were tainted. No, I was only referring to the three links in post #82, you WRONGLY assumed I meant every link you had ever posted anywhere I told you that one of my sources was from Washington Post which is an extremely liberal newspaper. You told me I was wrong. No, I said that you were wrong when you said that I was saying that the Washington Post link was tainted. Don't try to BS around it. Can you not read? Look at the history of the posts! When I said I posted a Washington Post article, you strictly and specifically told me I did not. NO, I said I hadn't said anything about the Washington Post. Like I said, it's irrelevant to what you were responding to when I personally was talking about the Washington Post article.You WEREN'T talking about the Washington Post article in your post #82, which is what I posted about, the only links you had were to mugu, dany.oz and canbera.edu., in response you came totally out of left field with "And Washington Post is an extremely liberal newspaper" What the hell has that got to do with those 3 links? And why would one bring it up? Cause perhaps it related to the discussion and YOU trying to say ALL of my sources were tainted. AGAIN, NO, I was only referring to your post #82 which had NOTHING in it about the Washington POST. As I have asked you a dozen times, go back and read your post #82 and highlight where you talk about the Washington Post. YOU DIDN"T. Keep scratching your head.
I don't know if it is Lynn's opinion. After reading his brusque write-off of Beyondism in his recent book Eugenics, I suspect it is not his opinion. Otherwise, yes, it is not a quote. Here, from A New Morality from Science: Beyondism, pp220-221, are Cattell's closest words to Lynn's paraphrase:Evo said:This is still Lynn's opinion, and in his own words, these are not the exact words in Cattell's book from what I see, it's not a quote. ...is that correct?
BlackVision said:The differences between identical twins, fraternal twins, and adopted childs are listed. Here.
Mean IQ Correlation:
Identical Twins raised together: 85%
Identical Twins raised apart: 74%
Fraternal Twins raised together: 59%
Siblings raised together: 46%
Siblings raised apart: 24%
Single parent/child together: 41%
Single parent/child apart: 24%
Adopting parent/child together: 20%
http://www.canberra.edu.au/uc/lectures/scides/sem992/unit4311/Lecture5.html
I agree and I told BV no more discussion on it a few posts back.Moonbear said:Evo, take a breath! Really, the housing debate is distracting from the main points. I also live in the "middle" of American and I know there are neighborhoods with properties starting in the multi-million dollar range. Heck, I was recently out looking at houses in those areas with friends of mine (I can't afford them, but one of my friends can...I like just dreaming). It seems to disturb folks from the coasts that they pay $2 million and get a postage stamp sized property, and those of us in the middle of the country can get the same size property for 1/10th that price, or for that price, can get a huge chunk of land with a gorgeous, huge house, stables, tennis courts, pools, etc. Anyway, chill out, we can argue quite well on facts, so relax about the personal stuff
Besides, if you were a redneck, you wouldn't be arguing against racism!
In politics, absence of bias is a requirement for authenticity.Evo said:But this test was administered by M.L. Finch . . . hardly a pure, unbiased scientist.
Yes you did! Jesus Christ does your memory suck or what.Evo said:Amazing, I have NEVER posted anything about the Washington Post except to keep telling you I am NOT REFERRING TO IT.
Play your old goddamn battles. Trying to get others involved, in this toil of yours. How pathetic and weak. Are you going to run to your mommy next?BlackVision, why don't you ask hitssquad to explain it to you
Again yes you did. You directly quoted the Washington Post article on Bouchard's study of twins.since you don't seem to be able to grasp the fact that I NEVER said ANYTHING about any post or link to the Washington Post.
As red as your neck?I can't wait to see how red your face turns when you realize you've been wrong all this time.
Are there $2 million houses in Middle America? Of course. Are there ANY neighborhoods in Middle America that has a MEDIAN value of $2 million. NO! That was my point. Evo is trying to say that the STARTING value of her neighorhood is $2 million which is absolutely false. If $2 million is the starting value, I would LOVE to know what the median value is.Moonbear said:Evo, take a breath! Really, the housing debate is distracting from the main points. I also live in the "middle" of American and I know there are neighborhoods with properties starting in the multi-million dollar range. Heck, I was recently out looking at houses in those areas with friends of mine (I can't afford them, but one of my friends can...I like just dreaming). It seems to disturb folks from the coasts that they pay $2 million and get a postage stamp sized property, and those of us in the middle of the country can get the same size property for 1/10th that price, or for that price, can get a huge chunk of land with a gorgeous, huge house, stables, tennis courts, pools, etc. Anyway, chill out, we can argue quite well on facts, so relax about the personal stuff
Besides, if you were a redneck, you wouldn't be arguing against racism!
Originally Posted by BlackVision
Well you're wrong but at least you're trying.
Bouchard's collection of twins-raised-apart is unique in American behavior genetics. In most twin studies, including Eaves's research, scientists are comparing the similarities between identical twins and fraternal twins; in other words, they compare comparisons. To test the assumption that genes play a role in IQ, for example, scientists ask whether the IQs of identical twins (who share all their genes) are more similar than those of fraternal twins (who share an average of 50 percent). To have any statistical validity, such studies must examine thousands of twin pairs. But enough studies have been done to show that identical twins are roughly 85 percent similar for IQ, fraternal twins about 60 percent. Crunching the numbers, behavior geneticists say about half the variation in IQ, whether among twins or non-twins, may be due to genes.
Evidence from the comparison of twins raised apart points rather convincingly to genes as the source of a lot of that likeness.
BV, this must stop.BlackVision said:Anyways, time to show how dumb Evo is...
As of April, 1991, Bouchard had not published the case studies. It was requested in a letter to Science by Beckwith that Bouchard publish his case studies. As quoted above, Science magazine requires that requests for data be reasonable, and Science's test for reasonableness of request for data is that the data in question be necessary to verify the conclusions of the experiments reported. Beckwith argued that the reason the request was reasonable was that placement bias by adoption agencies might cause the environments of the separated MZ twins to correlate independently of their genetics (making the genetic correlation look higher than it is).Evo said:Ok, I will accept this as a peer reviewed article. Based on this Bouchard was discredited. He refused to adhere to conditions listed above. Bouchard has refused to allow anyone access to any of the above.
- Conditions of Acceptance
When a paper is accepted for publication in Science, it is understood that:
- Any reasonable request for materials, methods, or data necessary to verify the conclusions of the experiments reported must be honored.
I never read this post or went to this link. I did not reply to this post.BlackVision said:Anyways, time to show how dumb Evo is.
Post #73 by BlackVision[/color]
IQ is about 80% genetic, 20% environment. These figures can accurately be drawn by studying identical twins raised in different environments.
"These statistics have shown that on average, identical twins tend to be around 80 percent the same in everything from stature to health to IQ to political views. The similarities are partly the product of similar upbringing. But evidence from the comparison of twins raised apart points rather convincingly to genes as the source of a lot of that likeness."
"identical twins are roughly 85 percent similar for IQ, fraternal twins about 60 percent."
Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/twins/twins2.htm
your post #80 never says where this information came from, you listed no source. It wouldn't matter even if you did since my response about the links you posted in your post #82 has nothing to do with post #80. My response to post #80 was about Bouchard, my response to post #82 was about the credibility of your sources listed there, you keep getting the two confused.BlackVision said:Post #80 by BlackVision. Note here that I took a quote directly FROM the Washington Post article.[/color]
Bouchard's collection of twins-raised-apart is unique in American behavior genetics. In most twin studies, including Eaves's research, scientists are comparing the similarities between identical twins and fraternal twins; in other words, they compare comparisons. To test the assumption that genes play a role in IQ, for example, scientists ask whether the IQs of identical twins (who share all their genes) are more similar than those of fraternal twins (who share an average of 50 percent). To have any statistical validity, such studies must examine thousands of twin pairs. But enough studies have been done to show that identical twins are roughly 85 percent similar for IQ, fraternal twins about 60 percent. Crunching the numbers, behavior geneticists say about half the variation in IQ, whether among twins or non-twins, may be due to genes.
Evidence from the comparison of twins raised apart points rather convincingly to genes as the source of a lot of that likeness.
Show me where in this post you state this is from the Washington Post. You never said that the blurb in post #80 was from the Washington Post.BlackVision said:Well you're wrong but at least you're trying.
Bouchard's collection of twins-raised-apart is unique in American behavior genetics. In most twin studies, including Eaves's research, scientists are comparing the similarities between identical twins and fraternal twins; in other words, they compare comparisons. To test the assumption that genes play a role in IQ, for example, scientists ask whether the IQs of identical twins (who share all their genes) are more similar than those of fraternal twins (who share an average of 50 percent). To have any statistical validity, such studies must examine thousands of twin pairs. But enough studies have been done to show that identical twins are roughly 85 percent similar for IQ, fraternal twins about 60 percent. Crunching the numbers, behavior geneticists say about half the variation in IQ, whether among twins or non-twins, may be due to genes.
Evidence from the comparison of twins raised apart points rather convincingly to genes as the source of a lot of that likeness.
No, you failed to say what your source was.BlackVision said:Bet you feel pretty stupid now don't you Evo.![]()
Is this something in a link I posted? I don't have the verbage from every link memorized. I don't even know who M. L. Finch is.hitssquad said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Evo
But this test was administered by M.L. Finch . . . hardly a pure, unbiased scientist.
In politics, absence of bias is a requirement for authenticity.
There is no such requirement in science, and this partly because authenticity is not an aim of science.
A neighborhood is a group of homes, in the context that we are discussing. It can be 2 homes. It can be 100 homes. Every home in a neighborhood can be the same price. There is no rule that says there has to be a range of prices or how many homes there have to be. I know you don't understand this.BlackVision said:Are there $2 million houses in Middle America? Of course. Are there ANY neighborhoods in Middle America that has a MEDIAN value of $2 million. NO! That was my point. Evo is trying to say that the STARTING value of her neighorhood is $2 million which is absolutely false. If $2 million is the starting value, I would LOVE to know what the median value is.
I don't believe that it was the consensus of Science that Bouchard had met the requirements. Do you have anything that says Science agrees he met the criteria? I think I still have an article or two that says he didn't. That would mean that he had not met the peer review criteria. But I was willing to let you have that one. I still am, because I am really swamped right now and don't want to spend the time hunting for them.hitssquad said:As of April, 1991, Bouchard had not published the case studies. It was requested in a letter to Science by Beckwith that Bouchard publish his case studies. As quoted above, Science magazine requires that requests for data be reasonable, and Science's test for reasonableness of request for data is that the data in question be necessary to verify the conclusions of the experiments reported. Beckwith argued that the reason the request was reasonable was that placement bias by adoption agencies might cause the environments of the separated MZ twins to correlate independently of their genetics (making the genetic correlation look higher than it is).
Jensen, on page 178 of his 1998 book The g Factor, explains that placement bias is irrelevant because the variance in IQ caused by placement variance itself can be calculated and in turn shown to be "exceedingly small":
<snip>
So, that is why Bouchard's October, 1990 Science article can be considered both:
- published in a peer-reviewed journal
and
- adhering to the guidelines of that journal upon which legitimate peer-reviewed status ultimately rests
I'm just playing ball. Evo did flame me first. I merely return the favor.russ_watters said:BV, this must stop.
Apologies. But as I've said, Evo started the flame war. I merely played along. Notice that I haven't been flaming anyone else.Monique said:As we agree it is off topic, don't go into it any further or this topic will be locked. Also, BlackVision, please stop calling other members dumb or stupid as it only undermines your own intellect. This has been going on long enough.
Yes, I am guilty of starting it, I was growing tired of your snide remarks and insults, but I should not have called you names, I have no excuse for losing my temper. I apologize.BlackVision said:Apologies. But as I've said, Evo started the flame war. I merely played along. Notice that I haven't been flaming anyone else.
I must wonder why when Evo does it, it goes unnoticed. Cause she's been here longer? She get's more leadway? Regardless, in respect for everybody, I am done.
Yeah you haven't been lately but once it starts, hard to refrain from it afterwards. I apologize as well.Evo said:Yes, I am guilty of starting it, I was growing tired of your snide remarks and insults, but I should not have called you names, I have no excuse for losing my temper. I apologize.
I did stop and try to bring it back up to a normal discussion though, I've been refraining from calling you names recently, it hasn't been easy.
No. It is part of the excerpt from the "excellent report" by Tim White that you reproduced in this post.Evo said:Is this something in a link I posted?hitssquad said:In politics, absence of bias is a requirement for authenticity.Evo said:But this test was administered by M.L. Finch . . . hardly a pure, unbiased scientist.
There is no such requirement in science, and this partly because authenticity is not an aim of science.
If you do an Advanced Search of Physics Forums with the Show Results as Posts option selected and for the argument finch, you will find a link to your Post 156 from this thread wherein you wrote:I don't even know who M. L. Finch is.
Well, as I said it was my fault for starting it, so I am the one that needs to apologize to everyone.BlackVision said:Yeah you haven't been lately but once it starts, hard to refrain from it afterwards. I apologize as well.
Topics such as these tend to get very heated given the subject matter. And one slight mishap will collapse the entire infrastructure. Not an excuse for the way this debate has progressed but it's more understandable that it happens in such a topic then it would be in other topics.Evo said:Well, as I said it was my fault for starting it, so I am the one that needs to apologize to everyone.
It appears we both are certain we are right about the posts, and I think we are both guilty of being too vague to the point that we both went down different roads, both right and both wrong, and we are both too stubborn to admit we might have contributed to the confusion, at least I am. One of my MANY faults. But since I am always right, I guess it's forgiveable. (joking, kind of)![]()
Truce?