The jury is still out on evolution

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ivan Seeking
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Evolution
AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers around the misconception of evolution as a mere theory, with President Bush's statement "the jury is still out" reflecting a broader anti-science sentiment prevalent among some political and religious groups. Participants argue that evolution is a well-supported scientific fact, contrasting it with the common misunderstanding that theories are unsubstantiated guesses. The conversation highlights the challenges posed by creationist groups attempting to undermine scientific education by promoting a false controversy. There is a call for the scientific community to better engage with the public to combat misinformation. Ultimately, the consensus is that scientific theories must be based on evidence, not beliefs or supernatural claims.
  • #101
joahua said:
Darwin conceded that the lack of fossil evidence for transitions between species of animals (in the sense that macro evolution advocates) is a potential objection to his theory, stating that:

He predicted, however, that future discoveries would vindicate his theory and resolve this stumbling block.

In 1979, David Raup, curator of the Field Museum of Natural History (Chicago) said this:

Apparently the fossil record we do have shows that in rocks dating back roughly 570 million years, nearly all animal phyla appears fully formed and "without a trace of the evolutionary ancestors that Darwinists require."[3]

Thoughts?

[1]Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species, 6th Ed. (available from Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext99/otoos610.txt)
[2]Raup, D. M., "Conflicts between Darwin and Paleontology", Bulletin, Field Museum of Natural History, January 1979, cited in Strobel, L. The Case for Faith, 127.
[3]Johnson, P. E., ]Darwin on Trial, 2nd Ed., 54.

joahua if you are still there.it is simply not true that cambrian explosion was as sudden or rapid event as it's often made out to be.consider the facts presented in the link below talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/dec97.html .well link isn't working. so here's the entire post.
In article <66iql6$noi@drn.zippo.com>,
>Chris Nedin <cnedin@geology.adelaide.edu.au> wrote:
>>In Ben's case, as in mine, no metazoan fossils are found as *organic*
>>remains (which was the point of the query). In almost all cases, metazoan
>>fossils of Ediacaran age are of the impressions of organisms (usually in
>>sandstone). There is no organic component/residue.
>
>Actually, I really wanted to learn just how good the pre-Ediacaran
>fossil record is, as compared with how good we would expect based on the
>preservation potential of the deposits we've found.

Oh, right. The PRE-Ediacaran record consists basically of single celled organisms or aggregates thereof, i.e. algae-like and bacteria-like. We do find very similar rock lithologies below Ediacaran fossil-bearing rocks, indicative of similar environments, but, with one or two possible exceptions, there are no obviously metazoan fossils. In South Australia, the first Ediacaran fossils occur in eroded channels, suggesting a period of erosion and lower sea level prior to the deposition of fossil-bearing sediments. However, it is becoming clear that the Ediacara fauna can be divided into separate assemblages, with the most diverse and disparate (variation in bodyplan) occurring at the highest (youngest) levels. So while the Ediacaran fauna tends to emerge into the taphonomic spotlight with very little fanfare, the earliest appearances have relatively low disparity.

>I have heard
>suggested several times that the Cambrian explosion might be an artifact
>of fossil preservation, and I was wondering how much data we have to test
>that hypothesis.

Well one explosion is. There are two aspects to Early Cambrian evolution which although separate are often confused as one and the same. One is the rapid diversification of life during the earliest Cambrian, and the other is the rapid appearance of organisms in the fossil record. Neither event was instantaneous.

The rapid diversification of life in the earliest Cambrian was almost certainly derived from a pre-existing stem stock of organisms, representatives of which appear in the Ediacaran fauna. The Ediacaran fauna appears to contain organisms with a cnidarian-grade of organisation, as well as the more derived, bilaterally symmetric, triploblasic annelid-grade, arthropod-grade and probably mollusc-grade. Trace fossils associated with, but not necessarily formed by, Ediacaran organisms clearly indicate organisms with a coelomic-grade of organisation (triploblasts). These are much smaller than the more commonly found fossils and occur in higher (younger) strata.

All this indicates that Ediacaran organisms appear to have taken two strategic pathways during the late Neoproterozoic. One group (composed of representatives of several -grades) opted for passive acquisition of oxygen via the 'skin' and simple diffusion through the tissues. This allowed them to grow to very large sizes (c. 1 metre) provided they remained very thin (oxygen will not diffuse very far through tissues). The other group, comprised of the triploblasts, opted for oxygen delivery via oxygenated fluids (from oxygen acquired through the 'skin'). This strategy resulted in the ability to have a body plan with a circular cross section (the deeper tissues being supplied via fluids and not simple diffusion) and thus a coelom. With a coelom, centimetric organisms can be mobile and produce simple traces, seen as trace fossils in the rocks. Ediacaran trace fossils are always horizontal - i.e. they do not burrow, probably because 1) there was plenty of organic matter at or near the surface; 2) burrowing covered up the 'skin' cutting down the supply of oxygen.

It seems likely that new biochemical pathways were also being explored, resulting in the production of the metazoan stalwart - collagen. A real tough customer, providing support and strength with flexibility, and difficult to break down.

Since all the Ediacaran organisms so far discovered appear to lack any hard parts it is likely that there were no mobile megascopic predators around (no hard parts = no teeth, its very difficult to gum something to death!). Thus, the presence of possible novel biocompounds, the lack of mobile predators and the lack of burrowers, all combined to provide a taphonomic 'window' which allowed the preservation of soft-bodied organisms. By the start of the Cambrian, this system was breaking down.

It is likely that while the big guns were simply getting bigger, the little guns were getting more complex. The triploblasts were beginning to toy with differentiation (something the arthropod body plan is particularly good at), specifically concentration the job of oxygen scavenging to specific body parts (= gills).

Now, by the very end of the Late Neoproterozoic, two things happened. Probably a combination of increasing dissolved oxygen levels in the oceans, but also probably due to the recognition of gills as a smart move. Whatever the reason(s), organisms began to burrow.

Burrowing is right up there in the list of brilliant tactical manoeuvers. It confers protection, both from dirtyfilthystinkingrottencarbonateprecititators (see below) and from storm activity and the odd vicious undertow. As an added bonus, it allows access to buried food sources which are denied the third-dimensionally challenged suckers confined the the top of the sediment. The possession of gills is a big advantage when burrowing because you can either hang them out in the current while keeping the rest of the body safely in the burrow, or by waving them back and forth, you can create a current which brings oxygenated water into the burrow.

The other thing that happened, was that organisms were toying with the precipitation of calcium carbonate (calcite). This first appears in the Latest Neoproterozoic as the calcified inner lining of worm tubes (a trace fossil called Cloudina). Granted it may well have only been a worm with a flare for interior design, but it was an important first step. From there it is only a short peristaltic motion to the mineralization of the tips of such body parts as legs and jaws. After all it makes burrowing much easier, plus it has the added bonus of allowing access to all that concentrated protein wrapped up in collagen! Predation probably took off faster than you can rub two mineralised jaw elements together.

Thus, with predation mopping soft-bodied organisms off the surface, and burrowing destroying buried remains, the Ediacaran taphonomic window was shut. The 'big is beautiful' organisms inevitably lost out. After all, you may be the biggest redwood in the forest, but you are always going to lose out to the wimp with a chainsaw!

Once the constraints of oxygen scavenging had been confined to a specific part of the body, the body plan in general becomes a good deal more plastic (loose a limb here, fuse some segments there). Thus the seeds of the great Cambrian Diversification were sowed. Fertilized with a rising sea level to open up new living space, organisms rapidly, but not instantly, diversified.

The appearance of organisms in the fossil record is a related issue, resulting from the mineralisation, and hence vastly increased preservation potential, of organisms. However, this too was not an instantaneous event.

At the start of the Cambrian, we find the first evidence of mineralised tissues in the form of what appear to be annelid jaw elements and "small shelly fossils" which are the separate elements of interlocking body armour worn by annelids, molluscs, halkiirids and probably arthropods. This meshwork armour was a first attempt and was composed of separate elements rather than a continuous sheet as it would be later. All this probably came about because of the segregation of oxygen scavenging to a particular part of the body, freeing up the rest of the body and enabling THE fashion accessory of the Early Cambrian to be worn - the calcium carbonate overcoat - without feat of suffocation. The overcoat provided extra support for muscles, allowing better movement, and some protection from predators. It also greatly enhanced the preservation potential of the organism or more importantly wrt arthropods, moults of the organism (thus one trilobite can leave behind several images of itself as it grows, with the added bonus of documenting the growth pattern at the same time - trilobites are cool, they are the best thing on 24 legs!).

Thus the rapid diversification of life during the Early Cambrian and the appearance of organisms in the fossil record are related, but separate, phenomenon. Neither are "sudden" or "instantaneous", but show a sequential, progressive increase.

in short evolution of calcified body parts rapidly changed the way ecosystems work and opened up new opportunities for life to exploit.also my hunch is that the phyla were already existing, but only fossilized after they evolved hard parts during the cambrian period.also note that speciation when and where they occur are very rapid events. a few examples will suffice.
1) most stunning is the rapid speciation of cichlid fishes in the 3 freshwater lakes of Malawi,Tanganyika and Victoria. there are(or were before the introduction of predatory Nile Perch) 2000 distict species cichlids living in these three lakes. victoria alone houses 500 different species and all of these arose from a single ancestral species which somehow entered the lake not more than 12400 years ago(which incidentally was when Victoria was first formed)
2)seafloor sediments of the ordovician period also shows an instance of rapid speciation. in early ordovician seabottom was oxygen poor and hence very few(4 or 5) species lived there. then suddenly, due to some shift in ocean current oxygen concentration rapidly increased. a rapid rise in the number of species are observed.within a few thousand years number of species rose to 10, a few thousand years hence it went upto 15 and so on. within a million years there are 40 species living on the ocean floor, and all of them newly evolved on situ.
3)codling moth are small grey brown insect that attacks apples and pears. it was always confined in europe, but was accidentally introduced in North America in the middle of the 18th century whence they promptly infested apple and pear orchards in USA.but in 1912 codling moth began attacking walnut trees that grew near apple orchards. the walnut infestation grew until in 1930 another strain began attacking plums. studies have shown that these strains are already becoming distinct and chances of interbreeding have decreased substantially. one species is well on the way of becoming 3 distinct species in a period of 150 years.many other examples exist.

what all this shows is simply that speciation depends on opening of new opportunities and are extremely rapid events when they do occur.explosions are the rule rather than the exception.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #102
Scientists Speak Up on Mix of God and Science

Another related story

At a recent scientific conference at City College of New York, a student in the audience rose to ask the panelists an unexpected question: "Can you be a good scientist and believe in God?"

Reaction from one of the panelists, all Nobel laureates, was quick and sharp. "No!" declared Herbert A. Hauptman, who shared the chemistry prize in 1985 for his work on the structure of crystals. [continued]
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/23/national/23believers.html
 
Back
Top