The Shadow Banking Market: A Hidden Cause of the Economic Collapse?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of economic policies and inequality, particularly focusing on the perspectives presented in a show by Bill Moyers. Participants explore themes of economic malpractice, the impact of student loans, the role of unions, and the influence of wealth on politics, with references to historical figures and policies.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express concern over economic inequality and its effects on the Millennial generation, citing Moyers' commentary on lost social contracts.
  • There are discussions about the high interest rates on student loans and the potential for reform, with some suggesting that loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy.
  • Some participants argue that the de-industrialization of cities is a significant issue, with questions raised about the intersection of race and economic decline.
  • One participant suggests that public solutions and new leadership are necessary to address economic problems, criticizing the influence of wealthy elites in politics.
  • Others challenge the notion that the economy is in dire straits, arguing that as long as people have basic needs met, economic issues may not be as severe as portrayed.
  • There are references to the influence of media and political ideologies, with discussions about the perceived biases of figures like Moyers and the role of the TEA Party.
  • Some participants share links to external articles and studies related to market manipulation and economic policies, indicating a desire for deeper exploration of the topics discussed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no clear consensus on the causes of economic issues or the effectiveness of proposed solutions. Disagreements arise regarding the impact of specific policies and the role of different political ideologies.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various historical events and figures, indicating that the discussion is influenced by personal experiences and interpretations of economic history. The complexity of the issues discussed suggests that assumptions and definitions may vary among participants.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring economic policies, the impact of inequality on different generations, and the interplay between politics and economics.

Evo
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Evo said:
This is an excellent show, IMO.

http://billmoyers.com/episode/full-show-economic-malpractice-and-the-millennials/

This is a bit long - how about taking a few points as they're discussed?

She begins by commenting that 'we lost our social contract' - I'm not sure what that means?

Apparently she wasn't affected as evidenced by her educational background - Yale and UC Berkeley - given her distant relatives were slaves, then great grandfather worked in steel mills, grandparents retired from public sector jobs in Chicago (police and social services)? She seems to be positioned more favorably than her predecessors?

Now that I listened more - she's claiming the Reagan policies have failed us - and I thought it was the social engineering of the Dems.:blushing:

I had no idea that college loans were subject to 18% intererest rates? I better double check our Parent Plus terms.

Apparently lobbyists derailed President Obama's attempts to reform student loans? She thinks the student loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy - to give people a chance?

She also wants to re-imbrace the unions - to give people a voice and power in the workforce.

She said the unspoken disaster in our lifetime - is the de-industrialization of our cities - somehow race is part of the problem - can anyone explain this - or support her comments?
 
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A side remark. It looks to me that if you have kids, and they are getting ready for college, you could consider sending them to Europe. Tuition fees vary between Euro 1000 and Euro 10,000 a year though.
 
Because (she says) the CEO of WalMart makes $thousands per hour and the laborer in India/China makes pennies per hour. The higher priced goods on the shelf are beter - translated to wages the CEO is better than the worker?

She wants a WPA type jobs plan from President Obama - thinks this will get him re-eected by her generation?

She thinks public solutions for our problems will start with a clean-up of Washington - wealthy people and political elite are the problem - new leadership is required - "debt be damned".

Bruce Bartlett also weighs in with some Bush bashing - me thinks he forgot to factor in the challenges of 9/11?
 
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WhoWee said:
"debt be damned".

Every economic disadvantage is always offset by an advantage somewhere. As long as people have jobs, clothes, food, or xboxes even, all money problems are just paper exercises and these things normally level out over time. The real economy in the US is very rich, so I don't really buy doom and gloom here.
 
Bartlett quotes Reagan regarding taking the US credit card away - and blames our problems on Bush and Congressional Repubs. Moyer reminds us of "no new taxes" - and says he showed courage against the wishes of the base. Says the "TEA Party" are basically mindless followers of the Conservative ideology - related to the tax pledge.

Bartlett says taxes aren't high - we just think they are high?

Bartlett says a lot of Christians are Repubs - because you have to believe in the ideology? I guess the Lib Dems have a different reason (not religious conviction?) for believing in left ideologies? They further discuss point that people reject facts because of their beliefs - cited a university study.

Bartlett says he doesn't think politicians are bought - just swayed by the community of shared interest.

Bartlett says if the wealthy don't pay more - then the rest of us will have to pay too?

Moyer asks a lot of pro-Dem/anti-Repub and pro-99%/anti-1% questions - doesn't he? Moyer seems to be VERY biased after 46 minutes - IMO.

Bartlett says FOX News has created an "echo chamber" - basically propaganda - Moyer agrees - big surprise? This is a lead into a discussion of FCC fairness (lack of) - and Washington has made the richer richer, etc. - jumps too fast to follow?

:smile:TEA Party people are elderly and concerned about Medicare - and will soon join Occupy Wall Street?:smile:

To summarize - Moyer compares our economy to the Italian cruise ship wreck - classic (crap) IMO.

Moyers continues with the evil billionaires and a promo for radicals (something or other?) - again Classic (crap) - IMO.
 
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Evo said:
This is an excellent show, IMO.

http://billmoyers.com/episode/full-show-economic-malpractice-and-the-millennials/
Interesting discussions with McGhee and Bartlett. The essential culprit is identified as the control of big money big corporation influence wrt government policy.

In his closing remarks, Moyers referred to http://www.alternet.org/visions/153972/new_rules_for_radicals%3A_10_ways_to_spark_change_in_a_post-occupy_world_/ by Sara Robinson.

Additionally, though Moyers didn't refer to it, Ralph Nader's most recent plan from his most recent book -- for average Americans who agree with Moyers' assessment and are wondering how they, personally, might contribute to positive changes wrt the status quo.
 
WhoWee blows a gasket... news at eleven... o:) :biggrin:

Rhody...
 
  • #10
Very good show, Evo. By a staunch Reagan Republican who served for Bush I.
 
  • #11
rhody said:
WhoWee blows a gasket... news at eleven... o:) :biggrin:

Rhody...

Hey Rhody! I thought the timeline related commentary was more fun than the condensed version.
 
  • #12
turbo said:
Very good show, Evo. By a staunch Reagan Republican who served for Bush I.

McGhee blamed Reagan's policies for our problems - do you agree with her?
 
  • #13
I was referring to the Bruce Bartlett interview.
 
  • #14
 
  • #15
turbo said:
I was referring to the Bruce Bartlett interview.

It is a bit confusing as the two interviews had nothing in common. Out of curiosity, did you support Bush I before or after the "read my lips" reversal?
 
  • #16
gravenewworld said:
Long but quite informative:
http://www.law.umaryland.edu/academics/journals/jbtl/issues/4_2/4_2_301_Silvers.pdf

http://seekingalpha.com/article/152438-cftc-the-key-to-market-manipulation

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/01/17/opinion/enron-and-the-gramms.html

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/26/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20101026

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/16/what-goldmans-conduct-reveals/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/wallstreet/weill/demise.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/warning/interviews/born.html

For a moment there I thought you were going to give Bill Clinton credit for unleashing Wall Street.
 
  • #17
Evo said:
This is an excellent show, IMO.

http://billmoyers.com/episode/full-show-economic-malpractice-and-the-millennials/

The http://billmoyers.com/wp-content/themes/billmoyers/transcript-print.php?post=3323 is online.

I think much of what the guests point out as problems has been discussed here at PF, so probably everyone has an opinion about who shipwrecked the economy. In my opinion, we were all at least a little to blame. Though I think much of the problem was an abuse of our trust. We put our money in banks, trusting that the bankers knew how best to protect our investments. Then 2008 happened. We trusted our politicians to keep our country running smoothly(ok. maybe not lately) and efficiently(ref). Then we find out hundreds of them go on to become lobbyists. Hmmm... Did they ever have us in mind?

Expanding on ThomasT's reference to "New Rules for Radicals":

Sara Robinson said:
http://www.alternet.org/occupywallst/153972/new_rules_for_radicals%3A_10_ways_to_spark_change_in_a_post-occupy_world_?page=3

5. Focus on our goals, not on our enemies.
...
But we’ve got a lot to do, and are strapped for time, energy and resources to do it with. Every moment we spend focusing on How Evil They Are is a moment we are not focusing on creating the next America where we (and they) will all be spending the future. Yes, absolutely: we need to name our villains, clearly call out the threat they pose, and put names to the tools they’re using to stop us. But vanquishing them is not the ultimate goal. We’ve got bigger, better, more rewarding work to do. All they are to us is in the way. And all the energy they deserve is however much it will take to get them out of the way.

I think I'm now in love with a Kanuck. (Hometown: Vancouver, BC) :blushing:

I've been joking with everyone about my ONE BILLION DOLLAR idea: here, at work, friends, relatives. So far, everyone has told me not to wait the 870 days until I retire. Everyone, without fail, has said; "Get started. NOW!"

So I may have some questions for business owners in the near future.

ps. I started this post about 4 hours ago, but had to go change the oil in my truck before it started raining. Damned reality...
 
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  • #18
  • #19
Time Magazine 25 people To Blame For The Financial Crisis.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1877351,00.html
 
  • #20
edward said:
Time Magazine 25 people To Blame For The Financial Crisis.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1877351,00.html

I see Lew Ranieri made the list.:rolleyes: Personally, I think Barney Frank and Chris Dodd earned a seat.
 
  • #21
WhoWee said:
I see Lew Ranieri made the list.:rolleyes: Personally, I think Barney Frank and Chris Dodd earned a seat.
Bingo, WhoWee wins a cupie doll.

Rhody...
 
  • #22
edward said:
Time Magazine 25 people To Blame For The Financial Crisis.

http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1877351,00.html
Looks like they left out Reagan, Geithner, Paulson, Bernanke, Summers, etc., etc., etc., etc.
 
  • #23
Astronuc said:
Interestingly, Charles Koch is speaking out against crony capitalism, a topic of one of Moyers's programs.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704288304576170974226083178.html

Ugh! Kochs! Vomit! (and there I always liked you...)

CHARLES G. KOCH said:
I am confident that businesses like ours will hire more people and invest in more equipment when our country's financial future looks more promising. Laying the groundwork for smaller, smarter government, especially at the federal level, is going to be tough. But it is essential for getting us back on the path to long-term prosperity.

Koch Industries
2009 Revenue: $100 BILLION
U.S. employees: 50,000
2009 revenue/U.S. employee: $2,000,000

Time it takes the average American to make $2,000,000?

47.99 years...

Interpolating the numbers to pay Koch Industries employees an average of $41,673.83 per year vs. $2,000,000 per year?

Koch Industries could employ 2,399,587 people.

**** the Kochs.

hock tooey! ach. spit. gurgle gurgle. spit again...

The company I work for:

Om Industries
2009 Revenue: $2 BILLION
U.S. employees: 15,000
2009 revenue/U.S. employee: $133,000

Time it takes the average American to make $133,000?

3.2 years...

Interpolating the numbers to pay Koch Industries employees an average of $133,000 per year vs. $2,000,000 per year?

Koch Industries could employ 752,000 people.

Pardon my French, but the number of people Koch industries could employ in either scenario goes way off of Ivan's friends chart.

unemployment.numbers.2012.02.04.jpg
 
  • #24
Senator Byron Dorgan wisely speaking out against the commodities futures modernization act in 1999:




Integrity in Washington falls on deaf ears.
 
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  • #25
@ OmCheeto,

I think your numbers are a bit off. Not sure what your point is.
 
  • #26
gravenewworld said:
Integrity in Washington falls on deaf ears.
Not entirely, I think. But, yeah, power and money generally tends to trump integrity. The good news is that the American people, collectively, have an immense power to effect positive changes.
 
  • #27
OmCheeto said:
Kochs!
I don't necessarily agree with Koch on all points. I just thought it rather interesting that Charles Koch seemed to share the same concern that Moyers expressed about crony capitalism. I'm sure both have different views on the solution.

I'd like to see Koch on the Moyers program.
 
  • #28
Astronuc said:
I don't necessarily agree with Koch on all points. I just thought it rather interesting that Charles Koch seemed to share the same concern that Moyers expressed about crony capitalism. I'm sure both have different views on the solution.

I'd like to see Koch on the Moyers program.

I'd pay to see that!
 
  • #29
Astronuc said:
I don't necessarily agree with Koch on all points. I just thought it rather interesting that Charles Koch seemed to share the same concern that Moyers expressed about crony capitalism. I'm sure both have different views on the solution.

I'd like to see Koch on the Moyers program.

Yes, it's odd that the Koch's are such generous supporters of public broadcasting, yet we never see them. I'd like to meet them both. I'd like to bounce my business plan off of them.

Just to see how hard they laugh of course. I love to hear people laugh. :-p
 
  • #30
ThomasT said:
@ OmCheeto,

I think your numbers are a bit off. Not sure what your point is.

hmmm...

us gdp = 14,580 billlion
koch gdp = 100 billion

--> 1/145.8

us employment ~ 130,000,000?
130,000,000/145.8 = ~<1 million

hmmm...

You're probably right.

My point was probably that dollars shuttled into pockets because of abnormally low tax rates do no one any good.

(Unless of course you want a $2,000,000 toy train set in your basement. :-p)
 

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