The Swaps Market: Valuing a 700 Trillion Dollar Market

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the valuation of the swaps market, which is claimed to exceed 700 trillion dollars, in contrast to the world's GDP of approximately 60 trillion dollars. Participants explore the implications of this discrepancy, the nature of derivatives, and the systemic risks involved in the swaps market.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question how the swaps market can be valued so highly compared to global GDP, suggesting a potential overestimation of insurance relative to actual value.
  • One participant explains that the total value of assets can exceed net value due to leverage and cancellation effects in risk exposure, particularly in the context of swaps.
  • A participant describes the mechanics of an interest rate swap, illustrating how notional values can be misleading compared to actual cash flows, which may result in minimal net payments.
  • Another participant asserts that the net value of all global derivatives is zero, implying that positions cancel each other out.
  • A later reply raises concerns about the sustainability of the market, citing the 2007 financial crash and questioning how institutions can engage in high-risk bets without adequate coverage, especially when third parties may need to intervene in losses.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the swaps market's valuation and the nature of risk management within it. While some agree on the concept of net values canceling out, others challenge the assumptions of a closed system and highlight systemic risks that may not be accounted for.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of comparing differential quantities like GDP with state quantities such as asset values, and the discussion reflects uncertainty regarding the stability and transparency of the swaps market.

Jim Kata
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How can the swaps market be valued at over 700 trillion dollars, yet the world's entire GDP is only 60 trillion dollars? Is there more insurance in the world than there is value in the world?
 
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Jim Kata said:
How can the swaps market be valued at over 700 trillion dollars, yet the world's entire GDP is only 60 trillion dollars? Is there more insurance in the world than there is value in the world?

To equate a differentail quantity (like GDP) to a state quantity like the value of some asset you need some way of putting them in common terms like present value:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Present_value

The total value of assets can exceed the net value because of leverage and cancalation effects in risk exposure. In the case of swaps if you ensure both postions your risck cancels out. Now in a perfectly efficient market a swap market a given postion should be neutral when purchased in terms of asset value but as it matures it may gain or lose value. The oppostite postion would respond in the opposite way. Assets as a whole only increase if the people who end up with a losing postion don't sell assets to maintain a constant leverage.

I will need to give some more thought to say much more.
 
The way an interest rate swap works is as follow:

I want to bet on the LIBOR interest rate going up from its current position. You want to bet on it going down. So we take out loans against each other for 1000 dollars - you pay, say, the LIBOR rate, and I pay 2% (or whatever the LIBOR rate currently is). This swap has a NOTIONAL value of 2000 dollars, since we each owe each other 2000 dollars. This is what's often referred to when people talk about 700 trillion dollars in derivatives. In reality, at the end of one year you're going to owe me maybe 1022 dollars and I'm going to owe you 1020 dollars, so you're going to end up just paying me 2 dollars.
 
FWIW, the net value of all global derivatives is zero
 
Thank you for the answers. I am very naive to this subject so I need to add some follow up questions. The general answer I believe I'm getting is that the net value is zero since people are taking out bets against each other and they cancel out. I might be inclined to believe this if I thought this market was a closed system. However, in the crash of 2007 investment banks and insurers like AIG who lost these bets did not have the funds to cover their losses so they had to be bailed by a third party (taxpayers) who weren't directly involved in the bets. So this leads me to two more questions. How can investment banks and insurers be allowed to make bets that they can't afford to lose, and how can this market be seen as neutral if even the losers are bailed out by third parties?
 

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