Why Does The Fed Hide How Much Debt They Own?

[ATTC]

If you ever look up "Ownership of US Debt", notice in almost every place you look you only see foreign ownership of debt.

What about DOMESTIC ownership of debt? There is only one place online that tracks that and that's a CNBC article that disturbingly reveals the Fed itself holds 6x as much debt as China.

But you notice you never see anyone track how much debt the Fed owns or if they do the numbers don't add up. If we are 13-14 trillion dollars in debt, who holds all 13-14 trillion?

The numbers they show never add up more than less than half of that

 

[russ_watters]

Have you tried the wiki? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Estimated_ownership_of_US_Treasury_securities_by_category_0608.jpg

[edit] And that information was published by the Treasury Dept: http://www.fms.treas.gov/bulletin/index.html

And could you explain what you find disturbing about this information?

 

[ATTC]

Have you tried the wiki? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Estimated_ownership_of_US_Treasury_securities_by_category_0608.jpg

[edit] And that information was published by the Treasury Dept: http://www.fms.treas.gov/bulletin/index.html

And could you explain what you find disturbing about this information?

The public constantly operates under the assumption that the US is mostly in debt when the Fed itself holds many times over the share of debt than China

That sole pie chart vs all the articles after articles and easily accessible numbers right down to the millions of how much foreign ownership of debt there is but reluctance to print in print just how many dollars are NOT foreign.

The deceit is what's disturbing especially from the media institutions which get people to parrot the China as a scapegoat party line

Of course I know why the Fed would want to hide those numbers. So perhaps more appropriately the title should be why is the media so willingly enabling in not making this information public knowledge?

WHy the deceit and outright lies that China has held more US debt than the Fed itself?

 

[Evo]

The public constantly operates under the assumption that the US is mostly in debt when the Fed itself holds many times over the share of debt than China

That sole pie chart vs all the articles after articles and easily accessible numbers right down to the millions of how much foreign ownership of debt there is but reluctance to print in print just how many dollars are NOT foreign.

The deceit is what's disturbing especially from the media institutions which get people to parrot the China as a scapegoat party line

Please back up what you've posted with published information from a mainstream source.

 

[ATTC]

Please back up what you've posted with published information from a mainstream source.

China Remains Biggest Holder of U.S. Debt
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704093204575216680676960908.html

Outright deception like this from one of main financial publications.


One would be naive to think the majority of the public knows that particular foreign debt isn't higher than domestic total.

 

[russ_watters]

The public constantly operates under the assumption that the US is mostly in debt when the Fed itself holds many times over the share of debt than China.

That statement makes no sense. You're implying that the fact that the Fed holds most of the debt means that it isn't really debt. That's not correct.

That sole pie chart vs all the articles after articles and easily accessible numbers right down to the millions of how much foreign ownership of debt there is but reluctance to print in print just how many dollars are NOT foreign.

[shrug] So says you - it took me just a few seconds to find the information you said is difficult to find. Maybe I'm just a Google Jedi, though.

The deceit is what's disturbing especially from the media institutions which get people to parrot the China as a scapegoat party line

What deceit? All I'm seeing here is innuendo, misunderstanding and confirmation bias!

Of course I know why the Fed would want to hide those numbers. So perhaps more appropriately the title should be why is the media so willingly enabling in not making this information public knowledge?

The.Information.Is.Published.By.The.Government. It.Is.Not.Hidden!

WHy the deceit and outright lies that China has held more US debt than the Fed itself?

Please provide an example of this claim.

[edit] Didn't see your last post. I suppose that's just sloppy journalism. Clearly, the writer of the article is only interested in foreign debt, but it isn't stated explicitly in the article. I think it is a stretch to believe that that is intentional deception.

 

[russ_watters]

Anyway, if you google "ownership of US debt", the first 10 links are:

1. The wiki I linked.
2. The Treasury Dept FAQ.
3. A Treasury Dept list of foreign debt.
4. The Treasury Dept link I gave above.
5. An article on foreign vs domestic ownership.
6. An article on China's ownership.
7. An article on foreign ownership.
8. An article on foreign ownership that also mentions domestic ownership.
9. An article on China's ownership.
10. A discussion forum.

None of these links appear misleading (on purpose or not) about their purpose and the most relevant ones (the ones at the top) give exactly the information you were asking about.

However, if you are interested in why there is emphasis on foreign vs domestic ownership, I really think it should be self-evident: American debt owned by Americans means American control over America. American debt owned by foreigners means foreign control over America.

One would be naive to think the majority of the public knows that particular foreign debt isn't higher than domestic total.

That may well be true and I figure you base that on the media traffic of the issue, but so what? The foreign component is quite simply more problematic and therefore more newsworthy.

 

[Evo]

China Remains Biggest Holder of U.S. Debt
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704093204575216680676960908.html

Outright deception like this from one of main financial publications.


One would be naive to think the majority of the public knows that particular foreign debt isn't higher than domestic total.

That doesn't back up your claims. That's nothing but a blurb about the amount of debt china supposedly holds. Back up your claims. Unless your entire rant is about that single article.

 

[CAC1001]

The public constantly operates under the assumption that the US is mostly in debt when the Fed itself holds many times over the share of debt than China

That sole pie chart vs all the articles after articles and easily accessible numbers right down to the millions of how much foreign ownership of debt there is but reluctance to print in print just how many dollars are NOT foreign.

The deceit is what's disturbing especially from the media institutions which get people to parrot the China as a scapegoat party line

Of course I know why the Fed would want to hide those numbers. So perhaps more appropriately the title should be why is the media so willingly enabling in not making this information public knowledge?

WHy the deceit and outright lies that China has held more US debt than the Fed itself?

There is a misconception many people in the U.S. have that "China holds all our debt," but I've never seen this actually perpetuated by any credible source, it's just a misconception. China is the largest foreign holder of our debt, but otherwise, yes, the largest chunk of our debt is held by our own Federal Reserve system.

 

[ATTC]

There is a misconception many people in the U.S. have that "China holds all our debt," but I've never seen this actually perpetuated by any credible source, it's just a misconception. China is the largest foreign holder of our debt, but otherwise, yes, the largest chunk of our debt is held by our own Federal Reserve system.

And who perpetuates this misconception? Where does this idea come from? One doesn't have to look that hard to find mainstream articles that only focus on foreign ownership of debt. As far as that being more problematic, seems to me the ignorance of that portion is operating under the assumption that the government itself owns the debt when the debt being held is in the hand of PRIVATE institutions.

The fact that the country is in mostly in debt to the mere sector that is supposed to serve as the medium of exchange of goods and services, is a glimpse into the flaw of the system.

The emphasis on foreign debt is distracting and could be argued as strategy in a guise of the flawed nature of the system itself

You don't have to explicitly state something to make the public believe it. You can imply it by the amount of coverage you give it.

For instance, the amount of coverage of violent crimes would make the average person think that the prevalence of crime is far greater than reality.

Operating under the assumption that most people are aware of how much debt the Fed itself holds, isn't a very steady one if you look at how many public articles from mainstream sources talk of this or even if you simply asked the average person

 

[ATTC]

Anyway, if you google "ownership of US debt", the first 10 links are:

1. The wiki I linked.
2. The Treasury Dept FAQ.
3. A Treasury Dept list of foreign debt.
4. The Treasury Dept link I gave above.
5. An article on foreign vs domestic ownership.
6. An article on China's ownership.
7. An article on foreign ownership.
8. An article on foreign ownership that also mentions domestic ownership.
9. An article on China's ownership.
10. A discussion forum.

None of these links appear misleading (on purpose or not) about their purpose and the most relevant ones (the ones at the top) give exactly the information you were asking about.

However, if you are interested in why there is emphasis on foreign vs domestic ownership, I really think it should be self-evident: American debt owned by Americans means American control over America. American debt owned by foreigners means foreign control over America. That may well be true and I figure you base that on the media traffic of the issue, but so what? The foreign component is quite simply more problematic and therefore more newsworthy.

How many of those articles are from the mainstream media? ZERO. Thanks for making my
point.

And the links to the treasury site, neither of them point to the domestic debt. In fact one is a direct link to foreign debt.

The link you found from the pie chart on wikipedia, without that link, how much more difficult would it be to find that site that does indeed have the list of public debt?

Im not saying that the information is as secret as classified defense documents but it's certainly not in plain sight. And the information regarding the private institutional holders themselves, now that IS a matter of being outside the record of public domain

Not to mention reported ownership of debt does not even close to add up to total debt outstanding which suggests the numbers presented are not exactly forthright

 

[CAC1001]

And who perpetuates this misconception? Where does this idea come from? One doesn't have to look that hard to find mainstream articles that only focus on foreign ownership of debt.

Depends on what media publications you read.

As far as that being more problematic, seems to me the ignorance of that portion is operating under the assumption that the government itself owns the debt when the debt being held is in the hand of PRIVATE institutions.

Plenty of the debt is held by private institutions. Corporations, insurance companies, pension funds, other governments, etc...all own portions of the U.S. debt. The Federal Reserve is a quasi-private, quasi-public institution that is a hybrid because you wouldn't want a purely privately-owned central bank, but a government-run central bank doesn't work too well either.

 

[russ_watters]

And who perpetuates this misconception? Where does this idea come from?

People with heavy biases and poor reading comprehension?

As far as that being more problematic, seems to me the ignorance of that portion is operating under the assumption that the government itself owns the debt when the debt being held is in the hand of PRIVATE institutions.

Dunno. You're making an awful lot of assumptions, though and most have been wrong so far.

The fact that the country is in mostly in debt to the mere sector that is supposed to serve as the medium of exchange of goods and services, is a glimpse into the flaw of the system.

How so? What, exactly, is the flaw?

The emphasis on foreign debt is distracting and could be argued as strategy in a guise of the flawed nature of the system itself

For that to be true, there would first need to be such a flaw and then there'd have to be a media complicit with those who wanted to hide it. That's starting to sound a lot like conspiracy theory to me.

You don't have to explicitly state something to make the public believe it. You can imply it by the amount of coverage you give it.

For instance, the amount of coverage of violent crimes would make the average person think that the prevalence of crime is far greater than reality.

Are you suggesting that's done on purpose, for nefarious purposes? Isn't it more likely it is just done for ratings?

Operating under the assumption that most people are aware of how much debt the Fed itself holds, isn't a very steady one if you look at how many public articles from mainstream sources talk of this or even if you simply asked the average person

Again, I agree that such a discrepancy in understanding may exist, but that doesn't imply anything nefarious.

You're sounding pretty paranoid here.

How many of those articles are from the mainstream media? ZERO. Thanks for making my point.

A link to the original source of the data, which is easy to find and directly refutes your premise (note: your OP didn't mention the media) doesn't help your argument.

And the links to the treasury site, neither of them point to the domestic debt. In fact one is a direct link to foreign debt.

There were three, not two, and two of the three directly address the issue of domestic ownership. I don't suppose you actually looked at them?

 

[russ_watters]

Not to mention reported ownership of debt does not even close to add up to total debt outstanding which suggests the numbers presented are not exactly forthright

Could you post an example of this discrepancy please? I haven't noticed this discrepancy (not that I looked hard, but it's your claim...).

 

[ATTC]

For that to be true, there would first need to be such a flaw and then there'd have to be a media complicit with those who wanted to hide it. That's starting to sound a lot like conspiracy theory to me.
Are you suggesting that's done on purpose, for nefarious purposes? Isn't it more likely it is just done for ratings?

The decision making of the media is driven by monetary reasons. In the case of covering for the Fed it's called conflict of interest. The consolidation of the media to 5 corporations who all of which have major shareholders who benefit from the current economic system, gives them billions of dollars worth of reasons to make a place like China the scapegoat.

More important that the apparent conflict of interest is the actual tangible disparity of coverage itself.

Despite your proof by assertion that there is sufficient coverage, a simple FAQ page from the treasury website just stating what outstanding debt means and a link to foreign ownership of debt, doesn't exactly qualify as being informative on the amount of public debt oustanding held by domestic interests

Furthermore it doesn't take away from the fact that the actual holders is out of public domain, or the fact that the listed holdings don't come close to adding up to total debt outstanding

Using the smear word conspiracy for something that is actually permitted by law doesn't apply. There is nothing conspiratorial about it because technically it's legalized abuse

And all red herring aside it is demonstrably more difficult to find any mainstream source discuss the level of domestic debt held. There is literally only one article online on CNBC that I've personally found and one would be just as troubled to do the same especially within the multinationals of the USA.

 

[ATTC]

Could you post an example of this discrepancy please? I haven't noticed this discrepancy (not that I looked hard, but it's your claim...).

MAJOR FOREIGN HOLDERS OF TREASURY SECURITIES
(in billions of dollars)
HOLDINGS 1/ AT END OF PERIOD

Grand Total 4372.6 (4.37 trillion)

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Grand total of 4.3 trillion dollars leaves whopping 8-9+ trillion unaccounted for. A 9+ trillion that is not accounted to domestic total.

 

[nismaratwork]

ATTC, what exactly is your QUESTION here? I'm hearing a lot of propoganda, but no real questions except the rhetorical one you pose and then answer based on assumptions and little to no evidence.

You assume what people believe in the face of fairly overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If you think that your tone or "volume" is impressive, prepare to be dissapointed. If you don't count easily accessible information published by THE TREASURY... what do you think would be?

So far I'm just hearing, "Poor China is so misunderstood because America is afraid of it."... to 'paraphrase.

What IS your point exactly?

 

[ATTC]

ATTC, what exactly is your QUESTION here? I'm hearing a lot of propoganda, but no real questions except the rhetorical one you pose and then answer based on assumptions and little to no evidence.

You assume what people believe in the face of fairly overwhelming evidence to the contrary. If you think that your tone or "volume" is impressive, prepare to be dissapointed. If you don't count easily accessible information published by THE TREASURY... what do you think would be?

So far I'm just hearing, "Poor China is so misunderstood because America is afraid of it."... to 'paraphrase.

What IS your point exactly?

Was the premise used as a rhetorical device? Absolutely. But it doesn't invalidate the point.

Based on assumptions with little evidence? So it's an "assumption" that the number of mainstream media sources that point to US domestic ownership of debt is dwarfed by the number of discussions that focus solely on foreign ownership? Really? that's funny considering the tangible facts of a search result in the most reliable of search engines will yield results with a CNBC article being the only one that stands out like a sore thumb to debunk the misnomer that is shared by many

For you and others to deny the popularity of this misnomer is amusing and intellectually dishonest.

You point to the treasury website, and I point to hte fact that the direct link to the tangible breakdown of US ownership is in plain sight only on a BAR GRAPH on WIKIPEDIA that links to a bureau of the treasury, not the official treasury website itself. Not exactly a site that comes up in a search field.

Furthermore you ignore the fact that the breakdown of ownership of debt does not come close to adding up to the total of debt outstanding even when the dates are synchronized between the publishing

 

[nismaratwork]

Was the premise used as a rhetorical device? Absolutely. But it doesn't invalidate the point.

Here is the problem: What Point? All I see is you trying to convince people a conspiracy to turn Americans against China due to fear of debt holdings. Was there another point you were trying to make, or am I missing your's entirely?

Based on assumptions with little evidence? So it's an "assumption" that the number of mainstream media sources that point to US domestic ownership of debt is dwarfed by the number of discussions that focus solely on foreign ownership? Really? that's funny considering the tangible facts of a search result in the most reliable of search engines will yield results with a CNBC article being the only one that stands out like a sore thumb to debunk the misnomer that is shared by many

Bolding mine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weasel_word
Beyond that, your assumptions are refuted AFAICT by what Russ and others have already posted. What more do you want, a mailing list for every household detailing the debt breakdown? The information is freely available, and media in this country can be as hysterical as they want. That, unfortunately, is true the world over. If you have some point to make that doesn't depend on fallacies and assumptions, but is based on evidence that you can provide, I'm all 'ears'.

For you and others to deny the popularity of this misnomer is amusing and intellectually dishonest.

I LOVE the term intellectually dishonest... you should look it up after "weasel words".

You point to the treasury website, and I point to hte fact that the direct link to the tangible breakdown of US ownership is in plain sight only on a BAR GRAPH on WIKIPEDIA that links to a bureau of the treasury, not the official treasury website itself. Not exactly a site that comes up in a search field.

...And the other 9 sources? Beyond that, you're actually making a case, which means the burden of proof is YOURS. You need to provide evidence of something, not point to a lack and simply flail. Sorry, that's not how a debate or even discussion works. I'd love to respond to substance here, but you're acting as though previous posts by other users don't exist. I read this thread before I posted... did you?

Furthermore you ignore the fact that the breakdown of ownership of debt does not come close to adding up to the total of debt outstanding even when the dates are synchronized between the publishing

OK, but this doesn't point us toward China as the major debt-holder. I think you may be looking at this from the lens of someone who is used to a different kind of media, and access; your assesment doesn't match what others have posted here.

 

[russ_watters]

So far I'm just hearing, "Poor China is so misunderstood because America is afraid of it."... to 'paraphrase.

No, I'm smelling an anti-FED conspiracy theory...

 

[russ_watters]

MAJOR FOREIGN HOLDERS OF TREASURY SECURITIES
(in billions of dollars)
HOLDINGS 1/ AT END OF PERIOD

Grand Total 4372.6 (4.37 trillion)

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Grand total of 4.3 trillion dollars leaves whopping 8-9+ trillion unaccounted for. A 9+ trillion that is not accounted to domestic total.

That's a list of foreign holders of debt. There's nothing unaccounted for!

Despite your proof by assertion that there is sufficient coverage, a simple FAQ page from the treasury website just stating what outstanding debt means and a link to foreign ownership of debt, doesn't exactly qualify as being informative on the amount of public debt oustanding held by domestic interests.

The Treasury is the authoritative source on the issue. There need be nothing else!

And all red herring aside it is demonstrably more difficult to find any mainstream source discuss the level of domestic debt held.

That might mean something if it actually was "difficult". More difficult than ridiculously easy is still pretty ridiculously easy.

 

[nismaratwork]

No, I'm smelling an anti-FED conspiracy theory...

Ironic.. I just heard an NPR special about the damned thing. For a body who's head is constantly dragged in front of comittee after comittee... it sturck me as relatively open.

This same program tracked the development of the Brazilian currency from failed, through the "URV", to the current success, the Real. I suppose that could be a conspiracy too... wish we'd have one like that!

If this is an anti-Fed tirade, then we've gone from "virtually no evidence", to "massive evidence against".

 

[ATTC]

...And the other 9 sources? Beyond that, you're actually making a case, which means the burden of proof is YOURS. You need to provide evidence of something, not point to a lack and simply flail. Sorry, that's not how a debate or even discussion works. I'd love to respond to substance here, but you're acting as though previous posts by other users don't exist. I read this thread before I posted... did you?

Top 10 Google Search Yields of
"Ownership of US debt"

1)Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

Discuss- Again a bar graph that links to a bureau of the treasury and not the official treasury website


2)FAQ About Public Debt
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/resources/faq/faq_publicdebt.htm

Discuss- Treasury website with FAQs about terminologies. Not an actual breakdown of public ownership of debt

3)Foreign Ownership of Debt
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

Discuss- Treasury website with breakdown of Foreign Ownership of Debt.
Making my point of how concentration is on foreign ownership. Actual treasury website that fittingly lists only foreign owners of debt. And fittingly the missing trillions upon trillions don't add up when you consider the 4.7 trillion listed and the actual double digits of trillions that the US actually owes. Even the 51% of US and intragovernmental holdings won't make the numbers add up.

4)Breakdown of US Debt
http://www.fms.treas.gov/bulletin/index.html

Discuss- Again the ONLY SOURCE of the top 10 of US breakdown of debt. The straw man saying it doesn't break it down to individual names and addresses when the breakdown does not even include math that adds up to even close to 100% regarding the total debt and claimed institutional holders, is bush league.

5)Foreign Ownership Of Debt
http://mercatus.org/publication/foreign-ownership-us-debt-continues-grow

Discuss- Abstract chart and discussion of growth of Foreign Ownership growth of US debt

6)China's Holdings of U.S. Securities: Implications for the U.S. Economy

Discuss- PDF file discussing China's holdings of US Debt
http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34314.pdf

7)Foreign Ownership Of US Debt
http://www.lightparty.com/Economic/ForeignDebt.html
Discuss- 1997 article from Forbes Emphasizing point of foreign ownership of US Debt
No numbers or anything of current situation just like the rest

8)China Will Keep Buying US Debt
http://247wallst.com/2010/03/09/china-will-keep-buying-us-debt-due-to-few-other-alternatives/

Discuss- what do you know? Focus again on China

9)Foreign Ownership of Debt on Dangerous Path
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2488604/posts

Discuss- starting to see the pattern?

10)Foreign Ownership of Debt
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2007/05/does_foreign_ow.html

Discuss- Article title "Does Foreign Ownership of U.S. Debt make us Vulnerable?"

The next search results yield

Foreign Ownership of U.S. Debt Continues to Grow | Stix Blog ver 4.0
http://socyberty.com/issues/foreign-ownership-of-us-debt/

Is Foreign Ownership of Our Debt a Threat to the U.S.?
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/196135/foreign-ownership-our-debt-threat-u-s/veronique-de-rugy

Is China's ownership of so much US Debt reason for concern
http://askville.amazon.com/China’s-...on-citizens/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=3862937

Etc.

A few more abstract graphs here and there.


Notice none of these sources are mainstream and only ONE source breaks down the domestic debt and that's not the Fed's official site or the official site of the treasury itself but a bureau of it.

 

[ATTC]

That's a list of foreign holders of debt. There's nothing unaccounted for! The Treasury is the authoritative source on the issue. There need be nothing else! That might mean something if it actually was "difficult". More difficult than ridiculously easy is still pretty ridiculously easy.

Then where is the breakdown of the institutional breakdown of the other 9 trillion?

Of course there is one thing the numbers on the official treasury site does not seem to mind to admit and that's the fact that it's the most profitable business in the world by profit margin. 58 billion in net income in 2009. http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/rptcongress/annual09/sec6/c3.htm

Rather amazing considering the industry that serves as medium of exchange has profits that dwarfs all the individuals who produce all the real wealth in society and many of which are heavily indebted to the individuals who can make the taxpayers themselves involuntarily collateral through the accumulation of public debt

Again you can toss around the word conspiracy as a smear word, but in reality the problem is that it's perfectly legal so there is nothing conspiratorial about it. It's legalized money manipulation

That's what makes it even more dangerous

 

[Evo]

Closed, ATTC, your prior threads were deleted or closed due to conspiracy theory. I allowed this for awhile to see if you had improved.