Theorem Reminder: Integral of $\phi$ Over [0,1]

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a theorem related to the integral of a non-negative function \(\phi\) defined on the interval \([0,1]\). Participants explore the conditions under which the integral being zero implies that the function is identically zero, examining the implications of continuity and the type of integral (Riemann vs. Lebesgue).

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants clarify that the condition should be \(\phi \geq 0\) rather than \(\phi > 0\) to avoid contradictions regarding the conclusion that \(\phi = 0\).
  • Counterexamples are proposed, such as using the indicator function for finite subsets of \([0,1]\), to illustrate that the theorem may not hold without additional assumptions.
  • There is a suggestion that the theorem might refer to equality almost everywhere (a.e.), but this remains uncertain.
  • Participants inquire whether the integral in question is a Riemann or Lebesgue integral, with clarification that it is a Riemann integral.
  • One participant proposes that if \(\phi\) is continuous and not identically zero, then there exists a neighborhood around points where \(\phi(x) > 0\) that contributes positively to the integral.
  • Another participant confirms that the continuity of \(\phi\) is crucial for the argument regarding the integral being greater than zero if \(\phi(x) > 0\) for some \(x\).
  • It is concluded that if \(\int \phi = 0\), then \(\phi\) must be identically zero, provided \(\phi\) is continuous.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the theorem without additional assumptions. While some agree on the implications of continuity, others raise concerns about the generality of the theorem and the need for further context.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the dependence on the continuity of \(\phi\) and the type of integral used, which are critical to the validity of the claims made. There is also ambiguity regarding the interpretation of equality in the context of the theorem.

Bachelier
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Could someone remind me what theorem is this:

##let \ \phi: [0,1] \rightarrow \mathbb{R} \ , \ \phi \geqslant 0 \ , \ \phi \in \mathbb{R} \\[20pt]

if \ \ \int_0^1 \mathrm{\phi(t)} \ \mathrm{d}t = 0 \ \Rightarrow \ \phi \equiv 0##

Thanks
 
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I assume you mean ##\phi \geq 0##, not ##\phi > 0## (else the conclusion ##\phi = 0## would be impossible). It's false without further assumptions. Let ##\phi## be the indicator function for any finite subset of ##[0,1]## for a counterexample. Do you mean to assume ##\phi## is continuous?
 
jbunniii said:
I assume you mean ##\phi \geq 0##, not ##\phi > 0## (else the conclusion ##\phi = 0## would be impossible). It's false without further assumptions. Let ##\phi## be the indicator function for any finite subset of ##[0,1]## for a counterexample. Do you mean to assume ##\phi## is continuous?

[strike]He's written ##\phi \equiv 0## so he probably means a.e.[/strike]

Maybe not. But yeah equality is only up to almost everywhere.
 
pwsnafu said:
[strike]He's written ##\phi \equiv 0## so he probably means a.e.[/strike]

Maybe not. But yeah equality is only up to almost everywhere.
Good point. OP, can you give us more context? Is it a Riemann integral or a Lebesgue integral?
 
jbunniii said:
I assume you mean ##\phi \geq 0##, not ##\phi > 0## (else the conclusion ##\phi = 0## would be impossible). It's false without further assumptions. Let ##\phi## be the indicator function for any finite subset of ##[0,1]## for a counterexample. Do you mean to assume ##\phi## is continuous?

fixed. ##\phi \geqslant 0, \ \phi## is continuous.
 
jbunniii said:
Good point. OP, can you give us more context? Is it a Riemann integral or a Lebesgue integral?

Riemann integral
 
Bachelier said:
fixed. ##\phi \geqslant 0, \ \phi## is continuous.
OK, I don't know if the theorem has a name, but it's easy to prove. If ##\phi## is not identically zero, take a point ##x## where ##\phi(x) > 0##. Then there is a neighborhood of positive radius around ##x## where ##\phi(y) > \phi(x)/2## for all ##y## in the neighborhood. So the integral is at least ##\phi(x)/2## times the width of the neighborhood.
 
jbunniii said:
Then there is a neighborhood of positive radius around ##x## where ##\phi(y) > \phi(x)/2## for all ##y## in the neighborhood.

Do we get this because of the continuity of ##\phi##?

So the integral is at least ##\phi(x)/2## times the width of the neighborhood.

did you mean then that the integral is at least ##\epsilon \cdot \frac{\phi(x)}{2}## Hence ##\equiv## to 0?
 
Bachelier said:
Do we get this because of the continuity of ##\phi##?
Yes.
did you mean then that the integral is at least ##\epsilon \cdot \frac{\phi(x)}{2}## Hence ##\equiv## to 0?
It's at least ##\epsilon \cdot \frac{\phi(x)}{2}## (assuming ##\epsilon## is the width of the neighborhood described earlier), so the integral is NOT zero.

To summarize, we proved that if ##\phi## is continuous and ##\phi(x) > 0## for some ##x##, then ##\int \phi > 0##. Equivalently, if ##\int \phi = 0##, then there cannot be any ##x## for which ##\phi(x) > 0##, i.e., ##\phi## must be identically zero.
 

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