FBI agent indicted for false statements and obstruction in Oregon standoff case

[Astronuc]

More craziness in 2016. It will be interesting to see where this goes this year and beyond.
Where - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harney_County,_Oregon

https://www.yahoo.com/politics/why-ammon-bundys-oregon-standoff-is-doomed-to-014534768.html

http://news.yahoo.com/armed-group-oregon-fears-raid-071902283.html

The federal government controls about half of all land in the West. For example, it owns 53 percent of Oregon, 85 percent of Nevada and 66 percent of Utah, according to the Congressional Research Service.

http://news.yahoo.com/people-of-bur...ife-refuge-occupation-drags-on-225354493.html

Burns, Ore., residents to Bundys: It's time to go home
Sheriff meets with anti-government occupiers one day after town meeting
http://news.yahoo.com/burns-oregon-residents-to-bundys--it-s-time-to-go-home-201715243.html

Self-styled militia group joins Oregon occupation, could raise tensions
http://news.yahoo.com/self-styled-militia-group-joins-oregon-occupation-could-213023142.html

Oregon occupation leader rejects sheriff's bid to end standoff
http://news.yahoo.com/oregon-occupation-leader-rejects-sheriffs-bid-end-standoff-005704307.html#

An Oregon rancher's take on the matter
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...you-dont-understand-about-the-bundy-standoff/Of course, the US government could return the land to the First People, in this case, the Paiutes.
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2016/01/burns_piaute_tribe_militants_s.html
http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/06/us/native-tribe-blasts-oregon-takeover/

 

[fras]

Of course, the US government could return the land to the First People, in this case, the Paiutes.

Or, the US government could return the land back to arthropods.

 

[gleem]

When America was settled the native Americans where baffled at the fact that these new inhabitants thought that they could own land. How could one own land?

 

[dipole]

When America was settled the native Americans where baffled at the fact that these new inhabitants thought that they could own land. How could one own land?

Possession is nine tenths of the law.

 

[gleem]

Yes, as they soon learned.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes, as they soon learned.

Personally, I think that's BS. Even if they didn't have the idea of ownership defined in terms of money and legal contracts -- because they had neither -- they still fully understood and claimed ownership. They fought wars with each other over their land. And besides -- if their beliefs say they can't own land, then they have no basis for a claim today that "their land" should be returned to them.

Regardless of all of that, it's been what, 150 years? It's over. Live with it, accept it -- heck, grow up. Civilized people no longer fight over land. It is ridiculous to want to re-start a land fight because they don't like the chair their ancestors got when the music stopped. This isn't the Middle East, where people seem to think it is a normal thing to kill each other over obsolete land clams.

[/rant]

 

[WWGD]

Personally, I think that's BS. Even if they didn't have the idea of ownership defined in terms of money and legal contracts -- because they had neither -- they still fully understood and claimed ownership. They fought wars with each other over their land. And besides -- if their beliefs say they can't own land, then they have no basis for a claim today that "their land" should be returned to them.

Regardless of all of that, it's been what, 150 years? It's over. Live with it, accept it -- heck, grow up. Civilized people no longer fight over land. It is ridiculous to want to re-start a land fight because they don't like the chair their ancestors got when the music stopped. This isn't the Middle East, where people seem to think it is a normal thing to kill each other over obsolete land clams.

[/rant]

Isn't much easier to feel this way when you got the (way, way) better side of the deal?

 

[gleem]

The Chinese are extending the concept of ownership to the seas areas claimed by several other far eastern countries.

 

[russ_watters]

Isn't much easier to feel this way when you got the (way, way) better side of the deal?

I received no deals. These things happened a hundred years before I was born.
[edit]
And if you want to say that I've received the benefit of that -- that I'm lucky to have been born in the USA, sure, I agree. Ironically, these people received similar luck and are rejecting it!

 

[russ_watters]

The Chinese are extending the concept of ownership to the seas areas claimed by several other far eastern countries.

We do have a separate thread for that:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threa...itary-reaching-out.772216/page-7#post-5336325

 

[WWGD]

I received no deals. These things happened a hundred years before I was born.

EDIT You and I, all have benefited while growing up , indirectly, from ownership of those lands, by having access to resources we may not have otherwise had. Similar to the case of benefiting from , who knows, a trillion dollars worth of slave labor without which the country may not have developed as it did. Just curious, do you think if you had been , e.g., Jewish, you would not keep some resentment over Nazis, or if you were black, resentment over slavery, etc.? It is not healthy to keep those resentments, but it seems difficult to leave them behind too.

 

[russ_watters]

EDIT You and I, all have benefited while growing up , indirectly, from ownership of those lands, by having access to resources we may not have otherwise had.

See my edit too: yes, I received luck based on where I was born/who I was born to. Ironically, they are rejecting some of that same luck!

Similar to the case of benefiting from , who knows, a trillion dollars worth of slave labor without which the country may not have developed as it did. Just curious, do you think if you had been , e.g., Jewish, you would not keep some resentment over Nazis, or if you were black, resentment over slavery, etc.? It is not healthy to keep those resentments, but it seems difficult to leave them behind too.

I'm really not sure where you are going with that? Yeah, their ancestors had it rough. Everyone's ancestors had it rough, even if some had it rougher than others - though that would depend on how far we could go back. If I held on to racial/ethnic hate from events that happened before I was born, I'd have to kill myself for being part Scottish, English and German. What I object to is choosing to hold on to such things that shouldn't matter anymore. It's stupid and childish and racist. But I do get it: much of the strife in the world to day is from racism justified by history. It's time to grow up.

Anyway, I don't really see what that has to do with this thread, since this isn't about racial/ethnic hate it is about land ownership.

 

[gleem]

I think this disputes really is about the general principle of eminent domain and the use of land for the "public good"

 

[russ_watters]

I think this disputes really is about the general principle of eminent domain and the use of land for the "public good"

Yes, I haven't been following it very closely, but what I've heard is that it is largely about cattle grazing rights on public land.

 

[OmCheeto]

Yes, I haven't been following it very closely, but what I've heard is that it is largely about cattle grazing rights on public land.

Being less than 300 miles from the epicenter, I've been following this a little bit.
Of Astro's introductory links, about the only one that isn't familiar to me is:

An Oregon rancher's take on the matter
https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...you-dont-understand-about-the-bundy-standoff/

This article, is about a fellow Goonie, telling me, that I don't understand.
Out here, we call them; "Fightin' words!"
"Martha, did that thar dude just call me 'stoopid'"?

First off, the title of the piece:

I’m an Oregon rancher. Here’s what you don’t understand about the Bundy standoff.
The Obama administration has pushed our livelihood to the brink.

Way to lay blame, on someone, who has very little to do with your current predicament.
See; "Disruptive Technology".

I could tear mister "Andy of Mayberry Rancher's" argument to pieces, phrase by phrase, but that would be exponentially longer than the tiresome article itself, so I'll focus on some economic points:

...Every purchase I make — from new cows ($2,000 each)...

New cows are free. They're called "baby cows", or "calves", if you want to get pedantic. Why are you buying cows?

to a new piece of equipment worth hundreds of thousands of dollars — is a major investment.

The plural, indicates that this is not some "mom and pop" endeavor. $200,000 is not a small sum, for most Americans.
hmmm...

I think I'll stop here, as the further I get, the more I want to stab someone...

 

[jim hardy]

Not living out there i can't know what is really going on.

That said...
I don't trust bureaucracies.
They will grab land under false pretenses.

In early 1990's Florida confiscated the sparsely populated North half of Key Largo, excluding the exclusive Ocean Reef millionaire's community. They did pay those owners the assessed value for their property. They moved state employees into the few houses extant there .
I lived in a working class subdivision just a few miles further south on Key Largo adjacent John Pennekamp State Park. It predated the park.
One day every resident of our subdivision got an official letter from Florida's environmental department stating that the dredging fifty years earlier had exceeded permitted depth by some six inches . Therefore the state was confiscating all the property in the subdivision to reclaim their fill and there'd be no compensation.

I did what any reasonable man would do when so threatened , i bought a high powered rifle and joined the local militia.

Cooler heads prevailed . A neighbor in the subdivision was a retired lawyer . We paid his hotel bill in Tallahassee and he brought back a letter signed by Gov Chiles releasing the state's claims.

The subdivision is named Pamela Villa oops that's Winston Waterways _jh* in Monroe County and above is in the public records.

So ---
do i think there might be more to this than we're hearing about ?
You bet i do.
http://theconservativetreehouse.com...uge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

(ab) In 1908 President Theodor Roosevelt, in a political scheme, create an “Indian reservation” around the Malheur, Mud & Harney Lakes and declared it “as a preserve and breeding ground for native birds”. Later this “Indian reservation” (without Indians) became the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

(a) In 1964 the Hammonds’ purchased their ranch in the Harney Basin. The purchase included approximately 6000 acres of private property, 4 grazing rights on public land, a small ranch house and 3 water rights. The ranch is around 53 miles South of Burns, Oregon.

(a1) By the 1970’s nearly all the ranches adjacent to the Blitzen Valley were purchased by the US Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) and added to the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge. The refuge covers over 187,000 acres, stretches over 45 miles long and 37 miles wide. The expansion of the refuge grew and surrounds to the Hammond’s ranch. Approached many times by the FWS, the Hammonds refused to sell. Other ranchers also choose not to sell.

As Huck Finn said, "I been there."

OM - We had a good governor in Lawton Chiles. How's yours ?

edit
* sorry about subdivision name
Pamela Villa is nearby and i'd lived there prior...
...sure do miss my alleged mind

 

[Astronuc]

More armed men visit site of Oregon wildlife refuge standoff
http://news.yahoo.com/more-armed-men-arriving-oregon-wildlife-refuge-210754481.html

On Saturday, militants drove government-owned vehicles and heavy equipment around the compound, saying the trucks and backhoes now belong to the local community.

Ammon Bundy is a resident of Arizona. Apparently, like the Blues Brothers, Ammon believes he's on a divine mission from God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge

While grazing rights are an issue, the current dispute relates to the arson case against Dwight and Steve Hammond. Ostensibly, they were subject to due process of law. Some may disagree.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milit...r_National_Wildlife_Refuge#Hammond_arson_caseArmed Oregon occupation: Is it really about white poverty in the West?
http://news.yahoo.com/armed-oregon-occupation-really-white-poverty-west-184225134.html

This week, Ammon Bundy, the leader of the group, complained that Westerners are helpless against a federal foe that is “literally putting [people] into poverty.”

 

[OmCheeto]

Not living out there i can't know what is really going on.

You could know as much as me. I get all my news from the internet.
But I wouldn't expect anyone to, as this is too much information for even locals to absorb.

...
OM - We had a good governor in Lawton Chiles. How's yours ?

She didn't call out the National Guard to slaughter the intruders, so I'd say she's pretty good.
A lot of people have been asking why no one does anything about these people. But the fact of the matter is, the federal building they are occupying is little more than a visitor center. And its 30 miles from anything. Here are the coordinates if anyone doubts this: 43.265 -118.844
They've basically occupied the middle of nowhere.

The story is somewhat complicated, as there are two families involved.

Family #1, the Hammonds:
Local dad and son who are in jail for arson. The fire was allegedly started to cover up the fact that the two were killing and wounding deer illegally on federal property. Allegedly not for food.

Family #2, the Bundys:
Two brothers from out of state, along with about 10 associates, are criminally occupying a federal building.
Have an ongoing 23 year old legal battle with the federal government.
It is possible, that the Bundy's current actions have nothing to do with the Hammonds.

The Hammonds, in spite of how helpful the Bundys seem to want to be, want absolutely nothing to do with them, and told them to go home.
The nearest town, Burns, where there was protest last week of around 100 people, has a police force of 3: A sheriff and two deputies.
All schools in the Burns area were closed when the occupation started, and are still closed. Although this might seem overly cautious, I read that because the families might live several hours away, they are run as boarding schools. Kind of like college campuses for kids. This is a VERY rural area.

...sure do miss my alleged mind

Ditto.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fghanistan-Iraq-boost-combat-credentials.html
The outsiders (Bundy's, etc...) need to leave yesterday but there some issues that need to be addressed.

The Hammond's IMO are guilty and arrogant as sin but I'm troubled by the US governments appeal case on this matter and in general.

http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/07/12-30337.pdf

At sentencing, the court found that the guidelines range for Steven was 8 to 14 months and for Dwight was 0 to 6 months. Yet their convictions carried five-year minimum terms of imprisonment. See 18 U.S.C. § 844(f)(1). The government accordingly recommended five-year sentences of imprisonment and argued — both in its sentencing memorandum and at sentencing — that the court lacked discretion to impose lesser sentences. The court, however, concluded that the Eighth Amendment required deviation from the statutory minimum. Observing that Congress probably had not intended for the sentence to cover fires “the wilderness,” the court reasoned that five-year sentences would be grossly disproportionate to the severity of the Hammonds’ offenses. The court then sentenced Steven to two concurrent terms of twelve months and one day of imprisonment and Dwight to three months of imprisonment.
...
Given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense. The Supreme Court has upheld far tougher sentences for less serious or, at the very least, comparable offenses. See Lockyer v. Andrade, 538 U.S. 63 (2003) (upholding a sentence of fifty years to life under California’s three-strikes law for stealing nine videotapes); Ewing v. California, 538 U.S. 11 (2003) (upholding a sentence of twenty-five years to life under California’s three-strikes law for the theft of three golf clubs);

Basically, it's OK to hand out excessive sentences if other equally excessive sentences are being handed out.

I would like judges to be able to judge the actual facts of the crime and not be a rubber stamp for some rigid one size fits all federal "War On ...'' law.

 

[Hornbein]

The seizure of land by force of arms is both traditional and ongoing.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.kgw.com/news/ore-militants-stop-sending-us-sex-toys/14084577

 

[russ_watters]

The seizure of land by force of arms is both traditional and ongoing.

While that's true as a plain statement of fact, it has generally fallen out of favor in the world community and realistically was discarded by the major Western powers at the end of WWII. After something on the order of a thousand years of near perpetual war over their borders/territories, it suddenly and completely stopped more than 60 years ago. I don't know the details for the others, but the US has only reduced it's territorial holdings since the, which would have been unheard of before.

 

[russ_watters]

http://www.kgw.com/news/ore-militants-stop-sending-us-sex-toys/14084577

While awesome, how are they even getting packages delivered?

 

[nsaspook]

While awesome, how are they even getting packages delivered?

The FBI seems to think these guys are a lot more crackpot than dangerous. Lots of nice things 'from people who care' about how they are doing could be in some of the packages.

 

[Astronuc]

Reports of harassment, intimidation on the rise as Oregon occupation enters second week
http://news.yahoo.com/law-enforceme...ssment--intimidation-in-oregon-230339291.html

Armed group calls meeting to talk with Oregon community
http://news.yahoo.com/armed-group-calls-meeting-talk-oregon-community-204252389.html

The Latest: Sheriff says they will not be intimidated
http://news.yahoo.com/latest-armed-group-going-government-documents-201526085.html

Tension between ranchers and federal officials is dangerously high in Nevada
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-nevada-ranchers-blm-20160114-story.html

 

[Ben Niehoff]

While awesome, how are they even getting packages delivered?

I've been wondering the same thing. By the US Postal Service?

Unlike most Americans, I'm aware the the USPS does not receive any gov't funds. But aren't they at least gov't run? Not entirely sure, but it does seem that a group of anti-gov't terrorists receiving mail is rather hypocritical.

 

[Hornbein]

I've been wondering the same thing. By the US Postal Service?

Unlike most Americans, I'm aware the the USPS does not receive any gov't funds. But aren't they at least gov't run? Not entirely sure, but it does seem that a group of anti-gov't terrorists receiving mail is rather hypocritical.

It says they pick up the mail general delivery in a nearby town.

So they are allowed come and go freely from the occupied area? No blockade? I don't get it.

 

[OmCheeto]

I've been wondering the same thing. By the US Postal Service?

Two of the boxes are USPS, and a Dec 31, 2015 facebook post requests packages be addressed to:

General Mail
[two of the members]
Burns, OR 97720​

So, Yes.

Unlike most Americans, I'm aware the the USPS does not receive any gov't funds. But aren't they at least gov't run?

Pretty much.

Not entirely sure, but it does seem that a group of anti-gov't terrorists receiving mail is rather hypocritical.

Pretty much everything they are doing is hypocritical. I think this is why it's so easy to make memes about them.

Yesterday, I read an article:

Oregon occupiers call for common law grand jury [cnn]
Jan 13, 2016
...
The "judge," Bruce Doucette, owns a computer design and repair store near Denver...

I am assuming they are doing this in response to the comments of a real judge in the county;

[ref yahoo news]
...
But at a community meeting Monday, Harney County Judge Steve Grasty said he plans to make them pay for the estimated $60,000 to $70,000 a day it’s cost to bolster security in Harney County since the occupation began.

“We’re going to send Mr. Bundy the bill,” Grasty said.

[op-ed]
I was just thinking about how long the Bundy's have been fighting their original legal battle, 23 years!, and decided that they might have learned some "legality stuff" along the way. Or maybe not, and just make stuff up along the way.
Also, a lot of people are blaming Obama, duh, for a lack of action in the current situation. But this current situation is simply an extension of the Bundy's legal fight. It has nearly nothing to do with the original Oregon family going to jail, in spite of the "militias" foot stomping.

Anyways, this is somewhat of a political hot potato, as this has been going on for pretty much the full terms of Clinton, Bush, & Obama!
I can only imagine that any action at all against them, will have every yeehadist in America up in arms.

This is why I pretty much fully endorse the current actions. Wait for them to get bored and go home, arrest them all, throw them in jail, and throw away the damn keys.
[/op-ed]

 

[OmCheeto]

It says they pick up the mail general delivery in a nearby town.

So they are allowed come and go freely from the occupied area?

Yes.

No blockade?

Correct.

I don't get it.

It's complicated. Very few people "get it".

One of my fellow Goonie Facebook friends and I had a brief conversation about this the other day.

Om's friend; "Hippies protest things they're passionate about by sitting down holding hands. Because that's what they know. These guys are protesting with guns and stunts and drama because that's their mentality. HOWEVER! The scope of the protest should not be diminished because of their chosen method for attention".

Om; "If the scope of their protest is worthy of support, then they need a new PR manager, as I'm not getting it. And as for hippies... I like hippies. ...

Om's friend; "Some people light themselves on fire for attention. Some starve themselves to near death, or actual death. Some chain themselves to a stationary object and refuse to move. Some hang from ropes off of bridges. These assholes with guns are threatening deadly violence
on other people and that's ****ed up. Unfortunately they believe their hope for a more just future is aggressively hiding in the second amendment, so that's their m.o. WE should still look into what it is that got them so pissed off in the first place and we should be pissed off, too. After we disarm them, of course. If we dismiss what they're trying to say because we don't appreciate the method they're using ("whiny kids throwing a tantrum at a bird sanctuary") , the REAL bad guys ( in this case the BLM ) will continue to **** people over. I bet that will be the case here, sadly".

Om's friend; "I think we should send a missile or two through the front door. And I think the BLM (the whole government while we're at it) should be audited.

Om; "Missiles were my first thought, but I checked out the Oregon National Guard website, and discovered that they only have a few front loaders. Now the Oregon "Air" National Guard, on the other hand... As far as the government being audited? hmmm...". ...See More

I thought it was a very interesting conversation.
Unfortunately, he deleted his initial post, which wiped out the entire conversation.
But not before I copied the entire thing, sans the "See More" part.
For the life of me, I can't remember what I said.
But, I'm sure it was something along the lines of; "Good luck with that".

 

[Hornbein]

This seems to me to be setting an extremely bad precedent.

 

[mheslep]

More craziness in 2016.

Poor way to start a discussion, to label the actors in the story as crazy in the first sentence. They may be, but there are several highly odd things about this situation in the West that are not based on the actions of ranchers.

I'd start with the fact that the federal government somehow owns over a quarter of the land in this enormous country with a federal system, going as high as 85% in Nevada, so that the federal government may own half of all the land west of the Rockies. In a more or less one government country like, say, Russia, such would be unsurprising, but the United States ostensibly has a federal system, where the states and federal government are independently sovereign in matters of, for example, the police power resides which resides with the states. That balance can't exist in reality when the federal government owns an overwhelming share of the land.

I'd like to see a poll on the fraction of people that think the entire US should be turned into one big park, aside from their own residence. Former http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/01/16/canada-not-giant-nationa_n_1209463.html denounced that idea, as he thought it was being applied to Canada by Americans.

 

[nsaspook]

Poor way to start a discussion, to label the actors in the story as crazy in the first sentence. They may be, but there are several highly odd things about this situation in the West that are not based on the actions of ranchers.

The 'actors' have far overstayed their welcome even if their cause has some merit.

 

[mheslep]

The 'actors' have far overstayed their welcome even if their cause has some merit.

Perhaps so. My objection is to the bizarre lack of context here, the obsessive media coverage of a couple possible cranks in a remote cabin versus the blase attitude about a government in enormous overreach in land management.

 

[jim hardy]

I'd like to see a poll on the fraction of people that think the entire US should be turned into one big park, aside from their own residence. Former PM Harper of Canada denounced that idea, as he thought it was being applied to Canada by Americans.

i like the idea of parks, for we've got populous enough to need them

but to throw people off their land to expand one isn't right.

A park should be a good neighbor
and anyone lucky enough to live adjacent one should do likewise .

I'm wary of bureaucrats. They like to expand their power via creeping infringement. As Parkinson said, "Bureaucrats want subordinates not peers."

https://www.nccs.net/2002-07-the-u-s-constitution-and-federal-lands.php][/PLAIN]
The Founders allow Very Little Property to be Owned by the National Government
With the power of private property firmly in mind the Founders clearly set forth necessary limitations in the Constitution so that the national government will not accumulate much property itself. The thought was to leave it to the people who will use, care for, develop, subdue, and gain dominion over it in a manner which will bless the lives of all the people and lead to greater and greater permanent prosperity.

There were, however, a few reasons to have the national government own property: for a seat of government, for military uses, and for needful buildings. This is the very limited power given to Congress in the Constitution:

• 
  "To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings" (Art I, Sect. 8, Clause 17)

An earlier draft in the Convention merely read, "to exercise like authority over all places purchased for forts, etc." Madison noted that "Eldridge Gerry contended that this power might be made use of to enslave any particular State by buying up its territory and that the strongholds proposed would be a means of awing the State into an undue obedience to the General Government..."

 

[nsaspook]

Perhaps so. My objection is to the bizarre lack of context here, the obsessive media coverage of a couple possible cranks in a remote cabin versus the blase attitude about a government in enormous overreach in land management.

The media is fascinated by the exotic, new and the Sagebrush Rebellion is an old story. The political distance between the cranks and people who live in the badlands can be small but most Oregonians have a zero tolerance for grandstanding bozos of any stripe.