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News This land is whose land?

  1. Jan 9, 2016 #1

    Astronuc

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    More craziness in 2016. It will be interesting to see where this goes this year and beyond.
    Where - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harney_County,_Oregon

    https://www.yahoo.com/politics/why-ammon-bundys-oregon-standoff-is-doomed-to-014534768.html

    http://news.yahoo.com/armed-group-oregon-fears-raid-071902283.html [Broken]
    http://news.yahoo.com/people-of-bur...ife-refuge-occupation-drags-on-225354493.html

    Burns, Ore., residents to Bundys: It's time to go home
    Sheriff meets with anti-government occupiers one day after town meeting
    http://news.yahoo.com/burns-oregon-residents-to-bundys--it-s-time-to-go-home-201715243.html

    Self-styled militia group joins Oregon occupation, could raise tensions
    http://news.yahoo.com/self-styled-militia-group-joins-oregon-occupation-could-213023142.html

    Oregon occupation leader rejects sheriff's bid to end standoff
    http://news.yahoo.com/oregon-occupation-leader-rejects-sheriffs-bid-end-standoff-005704307.html#

    An Oregon rancher's take on the matter
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/post...you-dont-understand-about-the-bundy-standoff/


    Of course, the US government could return the land to the First People, in this case, the Paiutes.
    http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2016/01/burns_piaute_tribe_militants_s.html
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/06/us/native-tribe-blasts-oregon-takeover/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Jan 9, 2016 #2
    Or, the US government could return the land back to arthropods.
     
  4. Jan 9, 2016 #3
    When America was settled the native Americans where baffled at the fact that these new inhabitants thought that they could own land. How could one own land?
     
  5. Jan 9, 2016 #4
    Possession is nine tenths of the law.
     
  6. Jan 9, 2016 #5
    Yes, as they soon learned.
     
  7. Jan 9, 2016 #6

    russ_watters

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    Personally, I think that's BS. Even if they didn't have the idea of ownership defined in terms of money and legal contracts -- because they had neither -- they still fully understood and claimed ownership. They fought wars with each other over their land. And besides -- if their beliefs say they can't own land, then they have no basis for a claim today that "their land" should be returned to them.

    Regardless of all of that, it's been what, 150 years? It's over. Live with it, accept it -- heck, grow up. Civilized people no longer fight over land. It is ridiculous to want to re-start a land fight because they don't like the chair their ancestors got when the music stopped. This isn't the Middle East, where people seem to think it is a normal thing to kill each other over obsolete land clams.

    [/rant]
     
  8. Jan 9, 2016 #7

    WWGD

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    Isn't much easier to feel this way when you got the (way, way) better side of the deal?
     
  9. Jan 9, 2016 #8
    The Chinese are extending the concept of ownership to the seas areas claimed by several other far eastern countries.
     
  10. Jan 9, 2016 #9

    russ_watters

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    I received no deals. These things happened a hundred years before I was born.
    [edit]
    And if you want to say that I've received the benefit of that -- that I'm lucky to have been born in the USA, sure, I agree. Ironically, these people received similar luck and are rejecting it!
     
  11. Jan 9, 2016 #10

    russ_watters

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  12. Jan 9, 2016 #11

    WWGD

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    EDIT You and I, all have benefited while growing up , indirectly, from ownership of those lands, by having access to resources we may not have otherwise had. Similar to the case of benefiting from , who knows, a trillion dollars worth of slave labor without which the country may not have developed as it did. Just curious, do you think if you had been , e.g., Jewish, you would not keep some resentment over Nazis, or if you were black, resentment over slavery, etc.? It is not healthy to keep those resentments, but it seems difficult to leave them behind too.
     
  13. Jan 9, 2016 #12

    russ_watters

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    See my edit too: yes, I received luck based on where I was born/who I was born to. Ironically, they are rejecting some of that same luck!
    I'm really not sure where you are going with that? Yeah, their ancestors had it rough. Everyone's ancestors had it rough, even if some had it rougher than others - though that would depend on how far we could go back. If I held on to racial/ethnic hate from events that happened before I was born, I'd have to kill myself for being part Scottish, English and German. What I object to is choosing to hold on to such things that shouldn't matter anymore. It's stupid and childish and racist. But I do get it: much of the strife in the world to day is from racism justified by history. It's time to grow up.

    Anyway, I don't really see what that has to do with this thread, since this isn't about racial/ethnic hate it is about land ownership.
     
  14. Jan 9, 2016 #13
    I think this disputes really is about the general principle of eminent domain and the use of land for the "public good"
     
  15. Jan 9, 2016 #14

    russ_watters

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    Yes, I haven't been following it very closely, but what I've heard is that it is largely about cattle grazing rights on public land.
     
  16. Jan 9, 2016 #15

    OmCheeto

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    Being less than 300 miles from the epicenter, I've been following this a little bit.
    Of Astro's introductory links, about the only one that isn't familiar to me is:

    This article, is about a fellow Goonie, telling me, that I don't understand.
    Out here, we call them; "Fightin' words!"
    "Martha, did that thar dude just call me 'stoopid'"?

    First off, the title of the piece:

    Way to lay blame, on someone, who has very little to do with your current predicament.
    See; "Disruptive Technology".

    I could tear mister "Andy of Mayberry Rancher's" argument to pieces, phrase by phrase, but that would be exponentially longer than the tiresome article itself, so I'll focus on some economic points:

    New cows are free. They're called "baby cows", or "calves", if you want to get pedantic. Why are you buying cows?

    The plural, indicates that this is not some "mom and pop" endeavor. $200,000 is not a small sum, for most Americans.
    hmmm.....

    I think I'll stop here, as the further I get, the more I want to stab someone..........
     
  17. Jan 9, 2016 #16

    jim hardy

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    Not living out there i cant know what is really going on.

    That said...
    I don't trust bureaucracies.
    They will grab land under false pretenses.

    In early 1990's Florida confiscated the sparsely populated North half of Key Largo, excluding the exclusive Ocean Reef millionaire's community. They did pay those owners the assessed value for their property. They moved state employees into the few houses extant there .
    I lived in a working class subdivision just a few miles further south on Key Largo adjacent John Pennekamp State Park. It predated the park.
    One day every resident of our subdivision got an official letter from Florida's environmental department stating that the dredging fifty years earlier had exceeded permitted depth by some six inches . Therefore the state was confiscating all the property in the subdivision to reclaim their fill and there'd be no compensation.

    I did what any reasonable man would do when so threatened , i bought a high powered rifle and joined the local militia.

    Cooler heads prevailed . A neighbor in the subdivision was a retired lawyer . We paid his hotel bill in Tallahassee and he brought back a letter signed by Gov Chiles releasing the state's claims.

    The subdivision is named Pamela Villa oops that's Winston Waterways jh* in Monroe County and above is in the public records.

    So ---
    do i think there might be more to this than we're hearing about ?
    You bet i do.
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com...uge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/
    As Huck Finn said, "I been there."

    OM - We had a good governor in Lawton Chiles. How's yours ?

    edit
    * sorry about subdivision name
    Pamela Villa is nearby and i'd lived there prior...
    ....sure do miss my alleged mind
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
  18. Jan 9, 2016 #17

    Astronuc

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    More armed men visit site of Oregon wildlife refuge standoff
    http://news.yahoo.com/more-armed-men-arriving-oregon-wildlife-refuge-210754481.html [Broken]

    Ammon Bundy is a resident of Arizona. Apparently, like the Blues Brothers, Ammon believes he's on a divine mission from God.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_occupation_of_the_Malheur_National_Wildlife_Refuge

    While grazing rights are an issue, the current dispute relates to the arson case against Dwight and Steve Hammond. Ostensibly, they were subject to due process of law. Some may disagree.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milit...r_National_Wildlife_Refuge#Hammond_arson_case


    Armed Oregon occupation: Is it really about white poverty in the West?
    http://news.yahoo.com/armed-oregon-occupation-really-white-poverty-west-184225134.html [Broken]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 7, 2017
  19. Jan 9, 2016 #18

    OmCheeto

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    You could know as much as me. I get all my news from the internet.
    But I wouldn't expect anyone to, as this is too much information for even locals to absorb.
    She didn't call out the National Guard to slaughter the intruders, so I'd say she's pretty good.
    A lot of people have been asking why no one does anything about these people. But the fact of the matter is, the federal building they are occupying is little more than a visitor center. And its 30 miles from anything. Here are the coordinates if anyone doubts this: 43.265 -118.844
    They've basically occupied the middle of nowhere.

    The story is somewhat complicated, as there are two families involved.

    Family #1, the Hammonds:
    Local dad and son who are in jail for arson. The fire was allegedly started to cover up the fact that the two were killing and wounding deer illegally on federal property. Allegedly not for food.

    Family #2, the Bundys:
    Two brothers from out of state, along with about 10 associates, are criminally occupying a federal building.
    Have an ongoing 23 year old legal battle with the federal government.
    It is possible, that the Bundy's current actions have nothing to do with the Hammonds.

    The Hammonds, in spite of how helpful the Bundys seem to want to be, want absolutely nothing to do with them, and told them to go home.
    The nearest town, Burns, where there was protest last week of around 100 people, has a police force of 3: A sheriff and two deputies.
    All schools in the Burns area were closed when the occupation started, and are still closed. Although this might seem overly cautious, I read that because the families might live several hours away, they are run as boarding schools. Kind of like college campuses for kids. This is a VERY rural area.

    Ditto.
     
  20. Jan 9, 2016 #19

    nsaspook

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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...fghanistan-Iraq-boost-combat-credentials.html
    The outsiders (Bundy's, etc...) need to leave yesterday but there some issues that need to be addressed.

    The Hammond's IMO are guilty and arrogant as sin but I'm troubled by the US governments appeal case on this matter and in general.

    http://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2014/02/07/12-30337.pdf
    Basically, it's OK to hand out excessive sentences if other equally excessive sentences are being handed out.

    I would like judges to be able to judge the actual facts of the crime and not be a rubber stamp for some rigid one size fits all federal "War On ...'' law.
     
  21. Jan 10, 2016 #20
    The seizure of land by force of arms is both traditional and ongoing.
     
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