News CIA Finds No Evidence Hussein Sought to Arm Terrorists

[Zero]

Originally posted by drag
That's funny, and I thought that was just because of
the blown-up bus or restaurant or civilian vehicle
people see on TV every week. Intresting analysys Zero.

Live long and prosper.

That's what you get for trying to think...leave the thinking to those of us who are better suited to it, ok?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jonathan
Zero: I think if he read again he would still think you're the bad guy.
FZ+: The Egyptians do not have the right to harm Israel because of a just act of God. Also, saying two wrongs don't make a right doens't make sense, that is exactly what all Jews believe! Eye for an eye, etc. We are a predominately Christian nation, and yet we do not turn the other cheek like Jesus said to do, because on a nation wide scale that doesn't work without continual intervention by God. Do you really expect the Isrealis to just sit back and take it?
Zero(again): Do you actually believe in democracy? Because if you did then you'd rethink your opinions considering average Joe American doesn't agree on almost every issue. And I don't want to hear that he does, statistics are numbers and are not subject to your flawed interpretation. I have yet to hear a single poll that suggests that average Joe American has similar beliefs to yours, and don't think I don't keep what you've said in mind whenever I hear a poll being mentioned. It is a rare instance that the public agrees with you. Are you so pompous as to believe that you know better than millions of people?

This is funny...politics by way of fairy tales (the Bible), and truth in your eyes being determined by polls. Jeez, no wonder we don't agree on anything!

 

[FZ+]

The only thing being justified is terrorism, by Zero.

Please show me the bit where Zero proclaims terrorists to be heros we must all worship etc etc. It seems that Zero is trying to do something you aren't - understanding the terrorists, and figuring out why the million and one bombs the Israelis have thrown at them aren't working at all. I really do not see the purpose of continuously hitting at slight details, when Zero has made it clear that his intention is not to demonise the entire jewish people, indeed not even to accuse the Israeli government of genocide.

Try attacking the content of what he is saying, rather than the presentation.

Also, saying two wrongs don't make a right doens't make sense, that is exactly what all Jews believe! Eye for an eye, etc.

And who is being anti-semitic now?

That is exactly NOT what all jews believe. It is exactly what self proclaimed zionists on the far right of Israeli politics believe, whose voices have drowned out the more reconcilitory tones of the moderates. If this was true, and the Israelis are indeed so blind, so stupid as to be incapable of finding a peaceful solution, then all that terrorism is justified and the US should just pull out and leave the Israelis to the slaughter they are looking to receive. I hope to hell this isn't so.

The Egyptians do not have the right to harm Israel because of a just act of God.

Dear lord. Can't you see what you are saying? Can't you realize that the sort of religious thing you are spouting is almost entirely the same as the fanatical justifications of the Islamist extremist fringe?

Do you really expect the Isrealis to just sit back and take it?

No, but if they don't, nothing they do will work. Nothing they did has worked. On the simplest consideration of military strategy, it is pretty clear - to defeat an enemy, you must understand it. And by refusing to attempt to understand, by ignoring those who have understood, Israel can not win its war. Not, at least, to leave an Israel that is any better than the totalitarian governments of the past. Doing nothing is dramatically better than jumping into senseless action.

Are you so pompous as to believe that you know better than millions of people?

Is America so pompous as to believe that it is better than billions who would burn flags, scream hatreds, stab and murder against its power? Yes. Yes it is.

Democracy is not a creed by which the will of the majority is right - the will of the majority is enforced or represented, but it is not followed with fanatical loyalty - its capacity to change or improve must be respected. To work for the good of the people, you may not ignore their strongest wills - but you can strive to change them. Diversity is what drives democracy, and "freedom from" indoctrination kills off the idea of diversity of thought.

 

[Zero]

FZ+, me and you keep forgetting that expressing anything except fanatical devotion to Israel means you are an anti-semitic Nazi terrorist sympathiser! Don't think too hard, don't look at the big picture or the real-life complexity of the situation. Instead, we should just repeat the mantra--"Israel good, everyone else evil"

 

[Jonathan]

You all wholly misconstrued what I said!
FZ+: You answered questions that weren't even directed at you, but I got my answer. I was not being antisemitic, must I quote directly from the Bible to show you that that is what Jews believe? If they don't believe eye for an eye etc. they aren't really Jewish, it is at the heart of all Jewish law. Zero never outright claims that we should worship the terrorists, he says it implicitly with his sympathy for them. You used the Bible to come to the conclusion that the firstborn of Egypt were killed didn't you? There are no other historical records that I can think of that say it happened. If the Bible is a fairy tale, why are you allowed to use it to support your points, even sarcastically suggesting that it is Israel's fault, when Israel has no control over God. Yes, I do see the similarity between what I say and what the Islamic terrorists say. That similarity is that we both believe strongly in our God. The difference is that my 'interpretation' of the Bible isn't an interpretation at all, the Bible just says what it says. The Islamic terrorists are extremists, taking things out of context and
misconstruing the meaning to justify their own causes. However, in that way you are more like them than me, because as I pointed out above, you use the Bible, a known source of BS, to come to conclusions to argue against someone. SO I did the same thing against you, and you cried foul. How'd you like them apples?

Zero: The Bible is not a fairly tale. Without some source of higher truth, whatever it is, all we have is our unreliable, often contradictary, human minds. Human minds have been convinced throughout history of all sorts of stupid things, but that doesn't make them true. I don't care if it come from God, aliens, or is spelled in the stars, objective truth is out there, and is the only true truth. All otheres are mere approximations.
I didn't say that truth in my eyes is determined by polls, I was using polls as an example, one well could have used actually voting numbers, but that is slower and harder to do. My point is, if we don't have access to the objective truth, all we have is our best approximations of it. If that is all we have, then we must have all people speak and be heard and counted evenly, and then we should do a little math and see what the human race as a whole thinks is the closest thing to right, correct and/or true. Our only way to do that on huge world wide scales is to conduct polls, and so by dening the existence of a God given objective truth, then yes, polls are all we have(of course assuming such a poll were done where everyone is well informed enough to answer their true opinions). *EDITED FOR PF VIOLATIONS*

 

[FZ+]

must I quote directly from the Bible to show you that that is what Jews believe? If they don't believe eye for an eye etc. they aren't really Jewish, it is at the heart of all Jewish law.

No it isn't. Would I then say that if you aren't creationist, you aren't christian? Of course not. Those parts of the bible hold many different interpretations for different people. Many theologists believe that much of that section was simply a guide to law, or even just a temporary survivalist law for those tough times. This applies to the sane majority of jews, who do not stalk the streets preparing to stone adulteresses or return slaves to their rightful owners.

Zero never outright claims that we should worship the terrorists, he says it implicitly with his sympathy for them.

Lets take this. Suppose I say that Bob murdered his parents because they abused him as a child. Would this count as justifying Bob's crime? Would I be saying that Bob was right to kill his parents? No. Or would my only alternative be to say that Bob is right to have been abused as a child? Hell, no. This means that Bob is not just a senseless killer, and the whole thing is a tragedy.

Thats the difference between having understanding, and justifying.

You used the Bible to come to the conclusion that the firstborn of Egypt were killed didn't you?

That was a quip on the use of religion to justify by certain members of the Jewish far right. But do I need to state that the Israelis are not in any way pure, and so you can talk of retribution credits in terms of tit for tat?

The difference is that my 'interpretation' of the Bible isn't an interpretation at all, the Bible just says what it says.

The point didn't come in there. The bible never said that they were just. But you believed that the murder - yes, murder! - of tens of thousands of innocent Egyptian children can be justified because of the fervent belief of one side in God? This sort of argument is commonly used by the terrorists themselves, when they claim to be inhabited by God or doing gods work. Our rejection of terrorism comes from our belief that the killing of innocents in this way can NEVER be just, yet you are willing to through that away as long as you have strong enough belief in one side. This is supremely dangerous. That is why I cried foul.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Southern Lebanon's Concentration Camp

Posted by russ_watter:
“I don't see any death camps.”

Of course you don’t, but that does not mean that they do not exist, or have not existed in the past.
In Southern Lebanon Israel had a torture and extermination camp. Mostly Hizbollah freedom fighters were interned, tortured and murdered there by Southern Lebanon Army soldiers who were TRAINED IN INTERROGATION or TORTURE techniques by the Israeli Army and Mossad.
This is a well-documented fact. SBS in Australia ran an hour-long special on the dismantling of this camp by Israel after exposure of the torture crimes within the UN.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Opening Closed Eyes

Associated links to help people with the “very unsettling” truth about Israel’s former Southern Lebanon facility:

http://www.muslimedia.com/archives/oaw98/lebanon5.htm

http://www.southafrica.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/4077.php

http://www.moqawama.org/archive/drep_2001/jan_2001/dr_0123.htm

http://www.merip.org/mero/mero052901.html

I await hysterical screams of Anti-Semitism.

 

[drag]

Muslim Media, South Africa... nice links...
Kin'na reminds me of all those programs I
occasionaly notice here and there when
I skip arab channels - Holocoust denial programs,
dramas about Shahids, Al-Qaeda support rallies and so on.
Very REAL...

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Jonathan
I was not being antisemitic, must I quote directly from the Bible to show you that that is what Jews believe? If they don't believe eye for an eye etc. they aren't really Jewish, it is at the heart of all Jewish law.

Hmm... now that is racism. Israel is a democratic
country with democratic laws. The commendments of the
bible are not part of the Israeli Court system.
Are you giving Zero an example or are you, yourself, saying it ?

Originally posted by Jonathan
If the Bible is a fairy tale, why are you allowed to use it to support your points, even sarcastically suggesting that it is Israel's fault, when Israel has no control over God. Yes, I do see the similarity between what I say and what the Islamic terrorists say. That similarity is that we both believe strongly in our God. The difference is that my 'interpretation' of the Bible isn't an interpretation at all, the Bible just says what it says. The Islamic terrorists are extremists, taking things out of context and
misconstruing the meaning to justify their own causes. However, in that way you are more like them than me, because as I pointed out above, you use the Bible, a known source of BS, to come to conclusions to argue against someone. SO I did the same thing against you, and you cried foul. How'd you like them apples?

The bible does affect the political opinions of a small
minority in Israel regarding the relations with the PA.
Most religious jews in Israel are represented by religious
parties whoose only real agenda is to get as much of the
budget as possible flowing their way, and hold the
center/center-right on the political arena.

Originally posted by Jonathan
Zero: The Bible is not a fairly tale. Without some source of higher truth, whatever it is, all we have is our unreliable, often contradictary, human minds. Human minds have been convinced throughout history of all sorts of stupid things, but that doesn't make them true. I don't care if it come from God, aliens, or is spelled in the stars, objective truth is out there, and is the only true truth. All otheres are mere approximations.

Well, at least your last sentence seems true today...
Religion sucks.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Jonathan]

drag, though we disagree, I do not have the time nor will to argue much anymore..I'm quite hooked on PF,esp. since it moves so fast, I'm going to have to get off it.
But I do want to defend my self, I was not being racist, because I didn't say the eye for and eye etc. was the heart of Israeli law, I said it was the heart of Jewish law. As you pointed out, that is not the same, but I am not wrong, because that is not what I said.
Israel is a democracy, not a theocracy, so why would you equate Jewish and Israeli? I thought I was being clear, but it is so hard to tell how you come off over the net.

 

[drag]

O.K. I get it now. But, then again, if you look
at religious jews today you'll see that they have
nothing in common with what the biblical jewish
nation was like. They're like priests - harmless and
mostly inclosed in their own communes. Then
of course there are the settlers and some of their
suppporters in Israel that represent the nationalist
jews, however these are not a large minority and few
of them are actual extremists, while most just support
the right politicly, but do not want to break the
law/follow biblical commendments instead, and so on.

Anyway, I think this is totally off subject here.
You can edit these freely Zero.

Live long and prosper.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by drag


Anyway, I think this is totally off subject here.
You can edit these freely Zero.

Live long and prosper.

I think I'll close this, instead...it is WAY off-topic!