Thru the eyes of a marine - seeing the truth.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around differing perspectives on the situation in Iraq, particularly in relation to the presence of American forces and the sentiments of the Iraqi population. Participants explore themes of media representation, public opinion, and the complexities of insurgency, with references to historical parallels and the implications of various viewpoints.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants share images and statements reflecting a pro-American sentiment among certain Iraqis, suggesting a desire for reconstruction and stability.
  • Others argue that while there may be some pro-American sentiment, it is declining, and anti-American sentiment is rising, complicating the narrative presented by some participants.
  • Concerns are raised about the validity of polls indicating Iraqi opinions, with some questioning the credibility of the pollsters based on their historical ties to the Ba'athist government.
  • There is a discussion about the potential for a charismatic leader to seize power in Iraq, drawing parallels to historical events in Russia, and the implications of a lack of enthusiasm among Iraqis for peaceful demonstrations.
  • Some participants emphasize the dangers of ignoring the complexities of the situation, arguing that both overly optimistic and overly pessimistic views can be damaging.
  • Questions are posed regarding the motivations of ordinary Iraqis in the context of violence and occupation, highlighting the challenges of understanding their perspectives.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no consensus reached. There are competing narratives regarding the sentiment of the Iraqi population, the effectiveness of American presence, and the implications of insurgency. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the limitations of anecdotal evidence versus statistical data, and the potential biases in polling methods. The discussion reflects a complex interplay of opinions and interpretations of the situation in Iraq.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in international relations, conflict studies, and the socio-political dynamics of the Middle East may find this discussion relevant.

  • #31
studentx said:
But why is the situation worsening...

If you look back at the past 6 months , at all the incidents and bombings, how many of those were started by Americans?
When you read in the paper that 280 Iraqis , the UN and a dozen Iraqi police stations are blown up killing 0 Americans, do you think to yourself "Iraq is a mess. Damn that Bush"?

According to you Jcsd, what are the Americans doing wrong to cause these bombings?

I don't think I've blamed the US at all (though I did mention that US forces simply aren't trained for this kind of undertaking which I feel is a major oversight in US miltary training in general, howvere this would be little more than a periphal contributer to the current situation), what I have siad is that prenetmding that the situation is improving and that re-construction is going well is one of the worst things that can be done at the moment.
 
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  • #32
Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd? :rolleyes:

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?
 
  • #33
studentx said:
Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd? :rolleyes:

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?
On the other hand, wouldn't it be comforting to know that the people in charge are facing the trouble head-on, instead of concerning themselves with keeping up a happy facade? From my personal experience, there is nothing worse than someone playing their fiddle while Rome is burning...not only can you see things are bad, but you have zero confidence that the people in charge are capable of doing ANYTHING to fix it.

I much prefer a "hey, things aren't going as planned, but I'm confident that we can adjust strategy and come out ahead", than someone claiming to "stay the course" when the course isn't working.
 
  • #34
studentx said:
Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd? :rolleyes:

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?

No what I'm saying is ignoring the problem won't make it go away, so rather than trumpeting how everything's A-OK people shold be looking at the situation with a pragmatic mindset.
 
  • #35
jcsd said:
No what I'm saying is ignoring the problem won't make it go away, so rather than trumpeting how everything's A-OK people shold be looking at the situation with a pragmatic mindset.
And pragmatic doesn't mean panicking...it just means saying "look, this is a place where we can show some improvement, the initial plan was based on events that didn't pan out, so we're going to change things to suit reality."

This should really be no big deal... plans become obsolete the moment reality kicks in, there is no shame in adimtting this fact and moving on. Flexibility is as much of a positive triat as consistency, each in their proper place.
 
  • #36
There is no strategy that stops terrorism. If it existed than the entire planet would be using it.
Whatever strategy the Americans will adapt to, the terrorists will adapt to.

There are many things the ppl want Bush to do. They want him to pull out of Iraq, they want him to apologize to all muslims for being an infidel, they want him to admit defeat, you want him to admit there is a problem. You are very divided
 
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  • #37
I much prefer a "hey, things aren't going as planned, but I'm confident that we can adjust strategy and come out ahead", than someone claiming to "stay the course" when the course isn't working.
__________________
I rule!
When things arent working, they just send in the Ba'athist generals, and with startling success I might add. At this rate, Saddam should be back in command oh about November.
 
  • #38
schwarzchildradius said:
Saddam should be back in command oh about November.

LOL Saddam's future is the same as Stalin's and Hitler's; in the evenings, he'll be on the History Channel. Watch for him in the listings. Don't go away, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor...
 

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