News Thru the eyes of a marine - seeing the truth.

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russ_watters

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jcsd said:
Becasue the situation is worsening and insurgents are gaining more support, most worringly in Shi'ite areas which had formerly opposed insurgency.
Neither the anectodatal evidence phat linked, nor your poll support that statement. 92% is virtually everyone.
The poll was specifically used to show that most Iraqis do want the US out...
On that issue - which is off topic - the poll showed mixed and contradictory results.

Again, the purpose of this thread (if I may, phat) is simply to show that the population does not support the insurgency. They don't. You are trying to shift it to a conversation about the opinions of the Iraqis about the US. Not the same thing at all.
 

jcsd

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kat said:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-gallup-poll-side_x.htm



It may not have an effect on answers or it might, much depends on the fear and/or trust the Iraqi's have in the pollsters who are asking the questions. Although it is a Gallup poll it was the "Pan Arab Research Center" who administered it.
As you can see the Pan Arab Research Centre isn't an Iraqi organistaion, so far the only reason I can see why you are objecting to it is becasue the pollsters were Arabs.

Russ:
The Poll shows that most Iraqis beleive the situation is worsening and that was before the recent spate of violence and you'd have to of had your had buried in the sand not to notice the recne tspread of violence particulary to areas like Najaf which was formerly controlled by a moderate Muslim Cleric.
 

russ_watters

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jcsd said:
As you can see the Pan Arab Research Centre isn't an Iraqi organistaion, so far the only reason I can see why you are objecting to it is becasue the pollsters were Arabs.
... which may or may not matter. Its certanly something to consider.
Russ:
The Poll shows that most Iraqis beleive the situation is worsening and that was before the recent spate of violence and you'd have to of had your had buried in the sand not to notice the recne tspread of violence particulary to areas like Najaf which was formerly controlled by a moderate Muslim Cleric.
I never mentioned the recent increase in violence and it has nothing to do with this thread.

And does the poll show that? I'm not seeing it. In any case - that still has nothing to do with this thread. You want so desperately to make this about the US. It isn't. Its about Iraq and Iraqis and what they are doing to each other.
 

jcsd

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No, I'm saying that the real situation in Iraq, which includes some pretty alarming trends, must be recognized.
 
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But why is the situation worsening...

If you look back at the past 6 months , at all the incidents and bombings, how many of those were started by Americans?
When you read in the paper that 280 Iraqis , the UN and a dozen Iraqi police stations are blown up killing 0 Americans, do you think to yourself "Iraq is a mess. Damn that Bush"?

According to you Jcsd, what are the Americans doing wrong to cause these bombings?
 

jcsd

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studentx said:
But why is the situation worsening...

If you look back at the past 6 months , at all the incidents and bombings, how many of those were started by Americans?
When you read in the paper that 280 Iraqis , the UN and a dozen Iraqi police stations are blown up killing 0 Americans, do you think to yourself "Iraq is a mess. Damn that Bush"?

According to you Jcsd, what are the Americans doing wrong to cause these bombings?
I don't think I've blamed the US at all (though I did mention that US forces simply aren't trained for this kind of undertaking which I feel is a major oversight in US miltary training in general, howvere this would be little more than a periphal contributer to the current situation), what I have siad is that prenetmding that the situation is improving and that re-construction is going well is one of the worst things that can be done at the moment.
 
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Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd? :rolleyes:

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?
 

Zero

studentx said:
Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd? :rolleyes:

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?
On the other hand, wouldn't it be comforting to know that the people in charge are facing the trouble head-on, instead of concerning themselves with keeping up a happy facade? From my personal experience, there is nothing worse than someone playing their fiddle while Rome is burning...not only can you see things are bad, but you have zero confidence that the people in charge are capable of doing ANYTHING to fix it.

I much prefer a "hey, things aren't going as planned, but I'm confident that we can adjust strategy and come out ahead", than someone claiming to "stay the course" when the course isn't working.
 

jcsd

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studentx said:
Jcsd, if the American military would say things are worsening, what do you think would happen?
Would it stop the bombings, or would it give these terrorists a sense that they are winning the battle? Wouldnt other countries pull out when the biggest force in the country loses control?

How many ppl has Bush convinced that evrything is improving? Isnt popular opinion in fact against Bush and believe Iraq is a mess? Why do they want to hear from Bush' mouth that things are going down the drain, when they are already convinced of it? Why do you Jcsd? :rolleyes:

I will give another riddle Jcsd and please answer it this time.
Youre playing simcity4 and youve just built a wonderful city. The infrastructure is splendid and so is the music, but a terrorist blows it up!!
Do you admit you made a horrible mistake?
No what I'm saying is ignoring the problem won't make it go away, so rather than trumpeting how everything's A-OK people shold be looking at the situation with a pragmatic mindset.
 

Zero

jcsd said:
No what I'm saying is ignoring the problem won't make it go away, so rather than trumpeting how everything's A-OK people shold be looking at the situation with a pragmatic mindset.
And pragmatic doesn't mean panicking...it just means saying "look, this is a place where we can show some improvement, the initial plan was based on events that didn't pan out, so we're going to change things to suit reality."

This should really be no big deal... plans become obsolete the moment reality kicks in, there is no shame in adimtting this fact and moving on. Flexibility is as much of a positive triat as consistancy, each in their proper place.
 
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There is no strategy that stops terrorism. If it existed than the entire planet would be using it.
Whatever strategy the Americans will adapt to, the terrorists will adapt to.

There are many things the ppl want Bush to do. They want him to pull out of Iraq, they want him to apologize to all muslims for being an infidel, they want him to admit defeat, you want him to admit there is a problem. You are very divided
 
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schwarzchildradius

I much prefer a "hey, things aren't going as planned, but I'm confident that we can adjust strategy and come out ahead", than someone claiming to "stay the course" when the course isn't working.
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I rule!
When things arent working, they just send in the Ba'athist generals, and with startling success I might add. At this rate, Saddam should be back in command oh about November.
 
schwarzchildradius said:
Saddam should be back in command oh about November.
LOL Saddam's future is the same as Stalin's and Hitler's; in the evenings, he'll be on the History Channel. Watch for him in the listings. Don't go away, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor...
 

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