Time coordinate in the rain frame

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion focuses on the time coordinate in the rain frame as described in "Exploring Black Holes" by Taylor & Wheeler. The user, Steve, encounters negative results when calculating the metric for the rain frame using the equations provided in the book. Specifically, he derives the equation for dt_{rain} and subsequently calculates dτ^2, which yields a negative value outside the event horizon, indicating a potential error in his application of the metrics. Steve updates his findings, noting that incorporating c^2 into the calculations resolves some discrepancies but still results in negative values, prompting further investigation into the Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of general relativity and black hole physics
  • Familiarity with the Schwarzschild metric and its applications
  • Knowledge of Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates
  • Proficiency in tensor calculus and differential geometry
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the derivation and implications of the Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates
  • Examine the Schwarzschild metric in detail, focusing on its time-like and space-like geodesics
  • Explore the role of relativistic velocity in metric calculations
  • Investigate the conditions under which negative values occur in spacetime metrics
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, astrophysicists, and students of general relativity who are analyzing black hole metrics and their implications in theoretical physics.

stevebd1
Science Advisor
Insights Author
Messages
747
Reaction score
41
I'm currently looking at Metric for the Rain Frame in 'Exploring Black Holes' by Taylor & Wheeler (page B-13) and while it's straightforward understanding drrain (which basically equals dr), I'm having a problem getting my head around dtrain. The following is a step-by-step approach but for some reason, the results I get from the metric are negative. (Attached is an extract from the book which shows the metric in full, hopefully this is acceptable).

from the book-

[tex]dt_{rain}=-v_{rel}\gamma dr_{shell}+\gamma dt_{shell}[/tex]

where-

[tex]dr_{shell}=dr\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{-1/2}[/tex]

[tex]dt_{shell}=dt\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{1/2}[/tex]

[tex]v_{rel}=-\left(\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{1/2}[/tex]

[tex]\gamma \equiv \left(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}\right)^{-1/2}=\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{-1/2}[/tex]


Incorporating the above equations into the dtrain equation, I get-

[tex]dt_{rain}=\left(\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{1/2} dr\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{-1} + dt[/tex]

which tallies with equation 14 on page B-13.


Based on a 3 sol mass black hole (Rs=8861.1 m), r=11,000, dr=1 and dt=1, I get the following-

[tex]dt_{rain}=(0.897527 \times 5.142830)+1[/tex]

[tex]dt_{rain}=5.615829[/tex]


The metric for the rain frame (on a radial line only) is-

[tex]d\tau^2=\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)dt_{rain}^2 - 2\left(\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{1/2}dt_{rain}dr -dr^2[/tex]

The results I get here where dr=1 and dtrain=5.615829 are-

[tex]d\tau^2=(0.194445 \times 5.615829^2)-(1.795054 \times 5.615829)-1[/tex]

[tex]d\tau^2=-4.948399[/tex]


Obviously something is amiss here as dτ2 shouldn't be negative outside the event horizon.

I have a hunch I'm about 95% there but there's a mistake I'm making somewhere. I'd appreciate any feedback regarding getting this right.

Steve

_____________

UPDATE
I've applied the same black hole parameters and radius to standard Schwarzschild metric and I get (more or less) the same answer, dτ2=-4.948385. This is corrected by introducing c2 to dτ2 and dt2 providing an answer for dτ of 0.440959 (in standard Schwarzschild metric) which makes more sense. This tells me I need to incorporate c2 to the rain metric but when applied to both quantities of dtrain, the results are still negative.
______________
 

Attachments

  • rain_frame.jpg
    rain_frame.jpg
    72.6 KB · Views: 268
Last edited:
Astronomy news on Phys.org
Having looked at a number of rain metrics, I thought the Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates were the most accessible (rs=2Gm/c2 and θ=φ=0).

rain coordinates-

[tex]dt_r=dt+\sqrt{\frac{r_s}{r}}\left(1+\frac{r_s}{r}\right)^{-1}dr[/tex]

[tex]dr_r=\left(1+\frac{r_s}{r}\right)^{-1}dr+\sqrt{\frac{r_s}{r}}\ dt[/tex]


free-fall rain frame-

[tex]c^2d\tau^2=c^2dt_r^2 - dr_r^2[/tex]


Global rain frame-

[tex]c^2d\tau^2=\left(1-\frac{r_s}{r}\right)c^2dt_r^2 - 2\sqrt{\frac{r_s}{r}}\ cdt_rdr - dr^2[/tex]


The above 2 metrics appear to produce reasonable quantities for dτ. The free-fall rain frame metric remains time-like all the way to the singularity, representing the local frame of the infalling object, while the global rain frame metric becomes space-like at r<rs* with no geometric singularity at the event horizon. When introducing c2 to dτ and dtr in the global rain frame, it seemed reasonable to introduce c to [itex]-2\sqrt{\frac{r_s}{r}}\ cdt_rdr[/itex] as this appears to take into account relativistic velocity.

*Looking at increments very close to the event horizon (1-|rs/r|=1x10-9) in the global rain frame metric, it appears that the change over from time-like to space-like geodesics doesn't occur exactly on the event horizon but somewhere just outside it which doesn't seem right, even when removing c from the second term of dtr, space-like geodesics technically occur outside the Schwarzschild radius.

Source- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullstrand-Painlev%C3%A9_coordinates"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Having looked at other sources, it's pretty certain that c is introduced to the second term of dtr. For anyone who might be interested, I found this regarding Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates and the Kerr solution-

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0805/0805.0206v1.pdf

I'd still be interested to hear anyones opinion regarding the fact that it appears that space-like geodesics occur just outside the Schwarzschild radius for the global rain frame metric (while it's a fraction of a mm for a small black hole, it balloons to about 50 metres for a SM BH of about 3.7 million sol mass).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
1K
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K
Replies
6
Views
3K