Time coordinate in the rain frame

In summary, Steve is working on understanding the rain frame in the context of exploring black holes. He is having trouble understanding the metric for dtrain and is getting negative results. He has tried incorporating different equations and parameters, but is still having issues. He has also looked at other sources, such as the Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates, but is still struggling to make sense of the results. He is seeking feedback and opinions on how to correctly incorporate c in the rain frame metric.
  • #1
stevebd1
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I'm currently looking at Metric for the Rain Frame in 'Exploring Black Holes' by Taylor & Wheeler (page B-13) and while it's straightforward understanding drrain (which basically equals dr), I'm having a problem getting my head around dtrain. The following is a step-by-step approach but for some reason, the results I get from the metric are negative. (Attached is an extract from the book which shows the metric in full, hopefully this is acceptable).

from the book-

[tex]dt_{rain}=-v_{rel}\gamma dr_{shell}+\gamma dt_{shell}[/tex]

where-

[tex]dr_{shell}=dr\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{-1/2}[/tex]

[tex]dt_{shell}=dt\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{1/2}[/tex]

[tex]v_{rel}=-\left(\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{1/2}[/tex]

[tex]\gamma \equiv \left(1-\frac{v^2}{c^2}\right)^{-1/2}=\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{-1/2}[/tex]


Incorporating the above equations into the dtrain equation, I get-

[tex]dt_{rain}=\left(\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{1/2} dr\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{-1} + dt[/tex]

which tallies with equation 14 on page B-13.


Based on a 3 sol mass black hole (Rs=8861.1 m), r=11,000, dr=1 and dt=1, I get the following-

[tex]dt_{rain}=(0.897527 \times 5.142830)+1[/tex]

[tex]dt_{rain}=5.615829[/tex]


The metric for the rain frame (on a radial line only) is-

[tex]d\tau^2=\left(1-\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)dt_{rain}^2 - 2\left(\frac{2Gm}{rc^2}\right)^{1/2}dt_{rain}dr -dr^2[/tex]

The results I get here where dr=1 and dtrain=5.615829 are-

[tex]d\tau^2=(0.194445 \times 5.615829^2)-(1.795054 \times 5.615829)-1[/tex]

[tex]d\tau^2=-4.948399[/tex]


Obviously something is amiss here as dτ2 shouldn't be negative outside the event horizon.

I have a hunch I'm about 95% there but there's a mistake I'm making somewhere. I'd appreciate any feedback regarding getting this right.

Steve

_____________

UPDATE
I've applied the same black hole parameters and radius to standard Schwarzschild metric and I get (more or less) the same answer, dτ2=-4.948385. This is corrected by introducing c2 to dτ2 and dt2 providing an answer for dτ of 0.440959 (in standard Schwarzschild metric) which makes more sense. This tells me I need to incorporate c2 to the rain metric but when applied to both quantities of dtrain, the results are still negative.
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  • #2
Having looked at a number of rain metrics, I thought the Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates were the most accessible (rs=2Gm/c2 and θ=φ=0).

rain coordinates-

[tex]dt_r=dt+\sqrt{\frac{r_s}{r}}\left(1+\frac{r_s}{r}\right)^{-1}dr[/tex]

[tex]dr_r=\left(1+\frac{r_s}{r}\right)^{-1}dr+\sqrt{\frac{r_s}{r}}\ dt[/tex]


free-fall rain frame-

[tex]c^2d\tau^2=c^2dt_r^2 - dr_r^2[/tex]


Global rain frame-

[tex]c^2d\tau^2=\left(1-\frac{r_s}{r}\right)c^2dt_r^2 - 2\sqrt{\frac{r_s}{r}}\ cdt_rdr - dr^2[/tex]


The above 2 metrics appear to produce reasonable quantities for dτ. The free-fall rain frame metric remains time-like all the way to the singularity, representing the local frame of the infalling object, while the global rain frame metric becomes space-like at r<rs* with no geometric singularity at the event horizon. When introducing c2 to dτ and dtr in the global rain frame, it seemed reasonable to introduce c to [itex]-2\sqrt{\frac{r_s}{r}}\ cdt_rdr [/itex] as this appears to take into account relativistic velocity.

*Looking at increments very close to the event horizon (1-|rs/r|=1x10-9) in the global rain frame metric, it appears that the change over from time-like to space-like geodesics doesn't occur exactly on the event horizon but somewhere just outside it which doesn't seem right, even when removing c from the second term of dtr, space-like geodesics technically occur outside the Schwarzschild radius.

Source- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gullstrand-Painlev%C3%A9_coordinates"
 
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  • #3
Having looked at other sources, it's pretty certain that c is introduced to the second term of dtr. For anyone who might be interested, I found this regarding Gullstrand-Painlevé coordinates and the Kerr solution-

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0805/0805.0206v1.pdf

I'd still be interested to hear anyones opinion regarding the fact that it appears that space-like geodesics occur just outside the Schwarzschild radius for the global rain frame metric (while it's a fraction of a mm for a small black hole, it balloons to about 50 metres for a SM BH of about 3.7 million sol mass).
 
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1. What is a time coordinate in the rain frame?

A time coordinate in the rain frame is a measurement of time that is relative to a specific location or object in the rain frame. It is used to track the sequence and duration of events in the frame.

2. How is the time coordinate in the rain frame different from the time coordinate in other frames?

The time coordinate in the rain frame is different from other frames because it takes into account the effects of rain, such as time dilation and length contraction, on the measurement of time. This means that time coordinates in the rain frame may not match up with those in other frames.

3. How is the time coordinate in the rain frame affected by the speed of raindrops?

The time coordinate in the rain frame is affected by the speed of raindrops because the speed of rain can impact the measurement of time due to the time dilation effect. This means that time coordinates in the rain frame may change depending on the speed of raindrops.

4. Can the time coordinate in the rain frame be used to measure the duration of a rainstorm?

Yes, the time coordinate in the rain frame can be used to measure the duration of a rainstorm. It is a useful tool for tracking the sequence and duration of events in the rain frame, including the start and end of a rainstorm.

5. How does the time coordinate in the rain frame relate to the concept of space-time?

The time coordinate in the rain frame is an essential component of the space-time concept, as it is used to measure the time dimension of events in the frame. It is important in understanding the relationship between space and time and how they are intertwined in the fabric of the universe.

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