Time Dilation Debate: Arguments For and Against

[bhsmith]

I am interested in a reason as to why time dilation is not possible. I have done some sloppy google research and have found few people that think it is false.
Is there anyone that could give me a basic explanation of why it might not be true? other than the fact there is no proof of it.

 

[George Jones]

I am interested in a reason as to why time dilation is not possible. I have done some sloppy google research and have found few people that think it is false.
Is there anyone that could give me a basic explanation of why it might not be true? other than the fact there is no proof of it.

I am not sure what you mean; time dilation is observed routinely everyday.

 

[bhsmith]

But is there any reason why it would not be true? whether you believe it to be or not.

 

[George Jones]

But is there any reason why it would not be true? whether you believe it to be or not.

It is not a matter of belief, it is a matter of scientific observation.

 

[bhsmith]

ok I'm asking the wrong question i think.

What is an example of experimental evidence that has proved time dilation?

 

[starthaus]

ok I'm asking the wrong question i think.

What is an example of experimental evidence that has proved time dilation?

g-p-s

 

[DaveC426913]

As starthaus cryptically points out, both SR and GR have to be factored into GPS coordinates because if they were not, they would not work.

i.e. NASA guys send up some satellites, use them to range stuff on Earth. Numbers come up short. NASA figures in time dilation. Numbers work perfectly. (Not really but essentially.)

 

[Rebound]

If I recall correctly, one of the first empirical observations was done using 2 synchronized atomic clocks, one of which stayed on the ground and the other taken up in a plane. Although the actual difference in the time measured was very small the clocks were accurate enough to measure it.

 

[DaveC426913]

If I recall correctly, one of the first empirical observations was done using 2 synchronized atomic clocks, one of which stayed on the ground and the other taken up in a plane. Although the actual difference in the time measured was very small the clocks were accurate enough to measure it.

And nowadays, time dilation measurements are http://leapsecond.com/great2005/" . << awesomeness

 

[starthaus]

If I recall correctly, one of the first empirical observations was done using 2 synchronized atomic clocks, one of which stayed on the ground and the other taken up in a plane. Although the actual difference in the time measured was very small the clocks were accurate enough to measure it.

Yes, the Haefele-Keating experiment, a poor cousin to GPS.

 

[Passionflower]

Yes, the Haefele-Keating experiment, a poor cousin to GPS.

I think this experiment together with the Eddington experiment at Principe are rather poor as the positive outcomes seem to have been caused by experimenter bias.

With contemporary precision both experiments are now unquestionably indicative of the validity of GR but with the available precision at the time a positive result could not have been derived.

There is no excuse for experimenter bias.

 

[jtbell]

What is an example of experimental evidence that has proved time dilation?

You can find some in the sticky post at the top of this forum, titled "FAQ: Experimental Basis of Special Relativity".

 

[JesseM]

I think this experiment together with the Eddington experiment at Principe are rather poor as the positive outcomes seem to have been caused by experimenter bias.

What's your source for that claim? The Hafele-Keating experiment has been criticized by some anti-relativity types in non-peer-reviewed publications, but I get the impression that mainstream scientists think the criticisms are basically misguided. For example, the Experimental Basis of Special Relativity page from John Baez's site has this to say:

Hafele and Keating, Nature 227 (1970), pg 270 (proposal).
Science Vol. 177 pg 166–170 (1972) (experiment).
They flew atomic clocks on commercial airliners around the world in both directions, and compared the time elapsed on the airborne clocks with the time elapsed on an earthbound clock (USNO). Their eastbound clock lost 59 ns on the USNO clock; their westbound clock gained 273 ns; these agree with GR predictions to well within their experimental resolution and uncertainties (which total about 25 ns). By using four cesium-beam atomic clocks they greatly reduced their systematic errors due to clock drift.

Criticised in: A. G. Kelly, “Reliability of Relativistic Effect Tests on Airborne Clocks”, Inst. Engineers Ireland Monograph No. 3 (February 1996), http://www.cartesio-episteme.net/H&KPaper.htm. His criticism does not stand up, as he does not understand the properties of the atomic clocks and the way the four clocks were reduced to a single “paper” clock. The simple averages he advocates are not nearly as accurate as the paper clock used in the final paper—that was the whole point of flying four clocks (they call this “correlated rate change”; this technique is used by all standards organizations today to minimize the deficiencies of atomic clocks).

 

[starthaus]

I think this experiment together with the Eddington experiment at Principe are rather poor as the positive outcomes seem to have been caused by experimenter bias.

With contemporary precision both experiments are now unquestionably indicative of the validity of GR but with the available precision at the time a positive result could not have been derived.

There is no excuse for experimenter bias.

You must have missed my first answer. :-)

 

[Passionflower]

This is not about proving relativity wrong, I do not believe Kelly and Louis Essen, the inventor of the atomic clock, are anti relativists. I think they are simply people who like to be honest about what an experiment can show and what not and who abhor experimenter bias.

For anyone who wants to check for themselves, here are the results from the experiment and the way the adjustments where done: http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1971/Vol%2003_17.pdf

I would assume you agree with me that if experimenter bias is shown in any experiment, even if later, with higher accuracy, a theory is proven right, it is still unacceptable and inexcusable and is something that should not be brushed away?

I take it you have the same attitude about the Principe experiment, it was all perfectly derivable?

 

[JesseM]

This is not about proving relativity wrong, both Kelly and Louis Essen, the inventor of the atomic clock, are clearly not anti relativists.

You're misinformed, A G Kelly certainly is an anti-relativist, just look at http://www.worldnpa.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly%20-%20New%20Theory%20of%20the%20Behavior%20of%20Light.pdf section says:

In 1971 he published The Special Theory of Relativity: A Critical Analysis[2] in which he questioned Einstein's theory, which apparently was not appreciated by his employers. As Essen later stated (1978) [3]:

No one has attempted to refute my arguments, but I was warned that if I persisted I was likely to spoil my career prospects.

I would assume you agree with me that if experimenter bias is shown in any experiment, even if later, with higher accuracy, a theory is proven right, it is still unacceptable and inexcusable and is something that should not be brushed away?

Sure, but if a few anti-relativity types argue for experimental bias in non-peer-reviewed publications but no one in the mainstream physics community seems to think their criticisms have any merit, then short of making a detailed study of the experimental issues myself I'm inclined to bet it's very unlikely that the criticisms really do have merit and that the mainstream physicists are all misguided or involved in a cover-up.

I take it you have the same attitude about the Principe experiment, it was all perfectly derivable?

No, I didn't mention that one because I hadn't looked into it, I'm certainly open to the possibility that some famous experiments may have been flawed if at least some mainstream scientists hold this view. This Scientific American article suggests some respected science historians feel that Eddington did make a mistake in throwing out some data, although others feel he had legitimate reason for doing so since the data was collected from an instrument that had lost focus during the eclipse.

 

[Passionflower]

You're misinformed, A G Kelly certainly is an anti-relativist, just look at http://www.worldnpa.org/pdf/ebooks/Kelly%20-%20New%20Theory%20of%20the%20Behavior%20of%20Light.pdf by him; likewise Louis Essen's wikipedia article says that "He was critical of Albert Einstein's theory of relativity, particularly as it related to time dilation", and in the Later Life section says:

Well that certainly changes things. I made some updates just before you posted this so my quote is now a bit different, but in any case, then we obviously have to question Kelly and Essen's argument for the same reason, namely bias. Again this is not about proving relativity wrong, but about the validity of the particular experiment.

Sure, but if a few anti-relativity types argue for experimental bias in non-peer-reviewed publications but no one in the mainstream physics community seems to think their criticisms have any merit, then short of making a detailed study of the experimental issues myself I'm inclined to bet it's very unlikely that the criticisms really do have merit and that the mainstream physicists are all misguided or involved in a cover-up.

But promoting questionable experiments is a breading ground for anti-relativists. Instead of the HK experiment there are many much better and certainly unquestionable experiments. So I prefer we quote those than this piece of 'relative antiquity'.

No, I didn't mention that one because I hadn't looked into it, I'm certainly open to the possibility that some famous experiments may have been flawed if at least some mainstream scientists hold this view. This Scientific American article suggests some respected science historians feel that Eddington did make a mistake in throwing out some data, although others feel he had legitimate reason for doing so since the data was collected from an instrument that had lost focus during the eclipse.

Yes, that seems to be the case, and if it was intentional there is no excuse for that IMHO. Again, here later experiments show clearly the predicted effect.

And good for Scientific American! While in western culture truth is generally thought to be more important than 'saving face' there are cases in science where 'saving face' seems more important, from, to stay with relativity, math errors by Einstein or Hilbert to Eddington's experiment in Principe and perhaps also the HK experiment.

 

[JesseM]

But promoting questionable experiments is a breading ground for anti-relativists. Instead of the HK experiment there are many much better and certainly unquestionable experiments. So I prefer we quote those than this piece of 'relative antiquity'.

Of course anytime you bring up the HK experiment you can mention that more accurate experiments (including GPS) have been done since, but there's no reason to make the concession to anti-relativists that the HK experiment is "questionable" just because some anti-relativists have raised questions about it in non-peer-reviewed publications whose arguments have not been accepted by any mainstream scientists. That would be a bit like a biologist agreeing not to mention Archaeopteryx as evidence for evolution because some creationists have made unfounded speculations that it's a hoax or that it has no real reptile-like characteristics.

Yes, that seems to be the case, and if it was intentional there is no excuse for that IMHO.

If they knew the instrument had lost focus doing the crucial period when the data was being collected it seems to me there would be a reasonable case for throwing out that data.

And good for Scientific American! While in western culture truth is generally thought to be more important than 'saving face' there are cases in science where 'saving face' seems more important, from, to stay with relativity, math errors by Einstein or Hilbert to Eddington's experiment in Principe and perhaps also the HK experiment.

I haven't seen any attempt to "save face" on the Eddington experiment, there seems to be thoughtful debate about whether Eddington's experimental procedure was reasonable or not. And what "math errors" do you think scientists tried to sweep under the rug?

 

[starthaus]

But promoting questionable experiments is a breading ground for anti-relativists. Instead of the HK experiment there are many much better and certainly unquestionable experiments. So I prefer we quote those than this piece of 'relative antiquity'.

Agreed, this is why my first answer was "GPS". Such that there is no discussion about validity.

 

[bcrowell]

FAQ: Was the famous Hafele-Keating experiment bogus?

No. Certain internet kooks, including someone named A.G. Kelly, have produced reanalyses of the Hafele-Keating data in an attempt to disprove relativity. This is just silly, because the experiment was reproduced four years later to better precision, and again, to much higher precision, in a 25th-anniversary reenactment. The GPS system depends on general relativity, so any time you use a GPS receiver, you're reproducing relativistic time dilations of the type seen by Hafele and Keating.

Hafele and Keating, "Around the world atomic clocks:predicted relativistic time gains," Science 177 (1972) 166.

Hafele and Keating, "Around the world atomic clocksbserved relativistic time gains". Science 177 (1972) 168.

Ashby, "Relativity in the Global Positioning System," http://www.livingreviews.org/lrr-2003-1

 

[Vanadium 50]

I think this experiment together with the Eddington experiment at Principe are rather poor as the positive outcomes seem to have been caused by experimenter bias.

With contemporary precision both experiments are now unquestionably indicative of the validity of GR but with the available precision at the time a positive result could not have been derived.

There is no excuse for experimenter bias.

Do you have any evidence for these accusations? I would argue there is no excuse for accusations of dishonesty without evidence.

 

[Animastryfe]

My textbook for special relativity routinely uses the example of particle accelerators and high energy physics in general as experimental evidence for special relativity.

 

[starthaus]

But promoting questionable experiments is a breading ground for anti-relativists. Instead of the HK experiment there are many much better and certainly unquestionable experiments. So I prefer we quote those than this piece of 'relative antiquity'.
.

No question about this. So, when asked about experiments that confirm time dilation, you can safely use:

1. GPS
2. Ives-Stilwelll

 

[ritzmax72]

Here's a simple proof. http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlight/jw/module4_time_dilation.htm