Time independent perturbation theory

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around time-independent perturbation theory in atomic physics, specifically addressing the confusion regarding the inner product involving a perturbation operator and its implications for orthogonality of eigenstates. The focus is on theoretical understanding and clarification of Dirac notation in the context of quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the inner product < phi n | V | phi m > should equal zero for m ≠ n, given that < phi n | phi m > = 0.
  • Another participant explains that < phi m | is an eigenstate of the unperturbed Hamiltonian and may not be an eigenstate of the perturbation operator V.
  • A participant seeks further elaboration on the relationship between the eigenstates and the operator V.
  • It is noted that the operator V is not a simple number and can transform the state | phi m > into a different state | psi >, which may not maintain the orthogonality with | phi n >.
  • One participant expresses understanding after clarification that the operator can indeed change the basis vectors themselves.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the perturbation operator on the inner products of eigenstates, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific conditions under which < phi n | V | phi m > may or may not equal zero.

Contextual Notes

There is an underlying assumption that the participants are familiar with Dirac notation and the principles of quantum mechanics, but the specific conditions and definitions related to the operator V and its effects on eigenstates are not fully resolved.

Plaetean
Messages
35
Reaction score
0
In my course notes for atomic physics, looking at time independent perturbation for the non-degenerate case, we have the following:

http://i.imgur.com/ao4ughk.png

However I am confused about the equation 5.1.6. We know that < phi n | phi m > = 0 for n =/= m, so shouldn't this mean that < phi n | V | phi m > = 0 as well? Would someone be able to explain why this is not the case? I feel like I must be missing some important aspect of Dirac notation here.

Thanks
 
Physics news on Phys.org
##|\phi_m\rangle## is the eigenstate of the unperturbed Hamiltonian, that is, the original Hamiltonian before the presence of the perturbation ##V##. This means ##|\phi_m\rangle## doesn't necessarily happen to be the eigenstate of ##V## as well.
 
blue_leaf77 said:
##|\phi_m\rangle## is the eigenstate of the unperturbed Hamiltonian, that is, the original Hamiltonian before the presence of the perturbation ##V##. This means ##|\phi_m\rangle## doesn't necessarily happen to be the eigenstate of ##V## as well.
Could you elaborate a bit?
 
First, I would like to ask why do you think that ##\langle \phi_n|V| \phi_m \rangle = 0## for ##m\neq n##?
 
blue_leaf77 said:
First, I would like to ask why do you think that ##\langle \phi_n|V| \phi_m \rangle = 0## for ##m\neq n##?
Because different states are orthogonal, so ##\langle \phi_n | \phi_m \rangle = 0## for ## m\neq n##
 
That's the hole where you fall, ##V## is an operator, it's not just number. Operating ##V## on ##|\phi_m\rangle## will generally result in another state, i.e. ##V|\phi_m\rangle = |\psi\rangle##, where ##|\psi\rangle## may not very often be connected with ##|\phi_m\rangle## by a mere constant prefactor.
 
blue_leaf77 said:
That's the hole where you fall, ##V## is an operator, it's not just number. Operating ##V## on ##|\phi_m\rangle## will generally result in another state, i.e. ##V|\phi_m\rangle = |\psi\rangle##, where ##|\psi\rangle## may not very often be connected with ##|\phi_m\rangle## by a mere constant prefactor.
Excellent, thank you very much, that makes sense now. So the operator can change the basis vectors themselves?
 
Plaetean said:
So the operator can change the basis vectors themselves?
Yes, because ##V## can be any operator.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Plaetean

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
941
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
7K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K