Understanding how to derive the Feynman rules out of the path integral

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around deriving the Feynman rules from the path integral formulation of interacting scalar fields, specifically focusing on perturbative expansions. Participants explore the mathematical structure of the functional integral and its implications for correlation functions, with examples including the ##\phi^3## theory.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the functional integral for interacting scalar fields and expresses confusion about how to derive the Feynman rules from the perturbative expansion.
  • Another participant suggests an alternative approach using the functional integral for the free theory and discusses deriving the Dyson series for N-point functions.
  • A participant proposes to work through the ##\phi^3## theory in detail, aiming to understand the perturbation expansion step-by-step, focusing on the 2-point correlation function.
  • Further contributions involve attempts to compute the second-order terms in the perturbative expansion, with one participant expressing uncertainty about the resulting diagrams and their interpretations.
  • Another participant points out that certain contributions correspond to higher-order terms in the coupling constant and emphasizes the importance of including all relevant terms in the derivatives.
  • One participant shares their ongoing efforts to compute second-order terms and seeks validation of their approach, indicating a willingness to continue refining their understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and approaches to the problem, with some agreeing on the need for detailed calculations while others highlight potential oversights in the computations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific steps and interpretations of the perturbative expansion.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the computations involved in deriving Feynman rules and the necessity of careful handling of derivatives and terms in the expansions. There are indications of missing assumptions and unresolved mathematical steps in the discussions.

  • #31
JD_PM said:
Well, once we include tadpoles, ##7## more contributions to ##\mathcal{O}(\lambda^4)## arise (just as one more arose for ##\mathcal{O}(\lambda^2)##). Source: Srednicki QFT, chapter 9

View attachment 279760
Good! One comment: in particle physics, people often omit the tadpoles. The reason for this is that they always disappear once one renormalizes. The reason is that the integrals over the loop momenta (that flow in the tadpoles) do not contain the external momenta. In the examples here, we then get that the tadpoles are just (divergent ) factors multiplying the two point functions, factors which are independent of the external momenta. After renormalization, these terms get canceled completely. However, when working in condensed matter systems (and at T not equal to zero), these tadpoles do not cancel and are therefore important.

Anyway, I know this is a technical point but I thought I would point it out.

[Moderator's note: An additional off topic comment has been deleted.]
 
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  • #32
nrqed said:
I am not sure if you are still interested in getting the rules from the path integral, but the key point is that when you square you will have to apply
\begin{align*}
\frac{(i)^2}{4}\int d z \, dw \, dx \, dy \,\left(\frac{\delta}{\delta\phi(z)}\right)\Delta_F(z-w)\left(\frac{\delta}{\delta\phi(w)}\right)
\left(\frac{\delta}{\delta\phi(x)}\right)\Delta_F(y-x)\left(\frac{\delta}{\delta\phi(y)}\right)
\end{align*} on the exponential.

Please let us discuss the up-to-second-order result

\begin{align*}
&\exp\left(\frac{i}{2}\int d^d x \int d^d y \frac{\delta}{\delta \phi(x)}\Delta_F(x-y) \frac{\delta}{\delta \phi(y)}\right)\times \exp\left(i \int d^d z \left( -\frac{\lambda}{3!}\phi^3+J\phi \right)\right)\Big|_{\phi=0} \\
&=1+\frac{i}{2}\int d^d x \int d^d y\,(i(J(x))\Delta_F(x-y)(iJ(y)) + \\
&-\lambda \int d^d z \int d^d w \Delta_F (0) \Delta_F (z-w) \\
&-\frac{1}{4}\int d^d x \int d^d y \int d^d z \int d^d w \Delta_F(x-y) \Delta_F(z-w) J_x J_y J_z J_w + \mathcal{O}(\Delta_F^4)
\end{align*}

I conceptually understood that there are three diagrams for the ##2-##function.

My question now is: how could we establish the Feynman rules out such result so that we can obtain such three diagrams algorithmically/systematically?
 
  • #33
Hi @vanhees71 , I just wanted to ping you because I thought you might be interested in #33 :smile:
 
  • #34
JD_PM said:
Hi @vanhees71 , I just wanted to ping you because I thought you might be interested in #33 :smile:
I think I've to do the calculation myself first. That needs a bit of time. I'm not sure whether this approach is in any way simpler than the standard approach though.
 
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