Today in gaza israeli troops

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  • #26
kat
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Originally posted by Zero
Well, that includes Hiroshima, right? And the carpet bombing in Vietnam? What is the US civilian casualty rate during an after-war police action?


And, of course, America has commited enough war crimes, true enough.

Yes, I think Hiroshima did occur in the last century, vietnam as well..:wink: It's difficult to find any reports that cover armed conflicts with the united states in the last say, couple of decades that really cover non-combatant percentages. There is a number floating around with a rise in non-combatant death percentages floating above 90% worldwide. I dn't know US civilian casuality rate for an after war police action, but during peace time U.S. (the last year of the most recent study) showed that a comparision of armed conflicts IN the U.S. resulted in 59 police deaths and 368 civilian deaths.
I'm not sure why you would be interested in U.S. after war casuality rates to compare with Israeli casuality statistics as in order for it to be relevent Israel would have to be in a post conflict state.
 
  • #27
russ_watters
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Originally posted by kat
I'm not sure why you would be interested in U.S. after war casuality rates to compare with Israeli casuality statistics as in order for it to be relevent Israel would have to be in a post conflict state.
What I would be interested in seeing is a graph of civilian vs military casualty ratio over time for different countries. The US ratio has been quickly decreasing since WWII and is asymtotically (sp?) approaching zero today. I would expect that since WWII, the US ratios have been consistently among the lowest in the world. There is a lot of variability though depending on the type of conflict, Ie. Iraq in this war didn't have any American civilians to kill (though they did kill plenty of their own).
 
  • #28
kat
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Originally posted by russ_watters

Kat, I realize that, but timeframe is important and comparisons to others are important. During WWII EVERYONE attacked civilians (no, that does not make it right). Today, only SOME countries or groups specifically target civilians.

Russ-I believe it would be difficult to find any army that has less then a 40% noncombatant death rate for armed conflicts and if anyone can come up with dependable numbers that show otherwise I'd be grateful. The IDF goes to great lengths to avoid massive noncombatant deaths, beyond those of the U.S.. And before anyone starts spouting the sanctimonious smelly stuff, that doesn't make them perfect, but they can certainly be compared favorably with other western armed forces.

That may be true, but when they claim responsibility for a terrorist act and the focus of their efforts is terrorism, that makes them a terrorist organization. I would certainly agree with that Zero, and as I pointed out, the US takes POSITIVE steps to avoid civilian casualties.
Actully, when they claim not only responsibility for purposely murdering young children teens and old men and women and also claim that they will not give up their arms, that although they may give in to a short term ceasefire..they will never stop fighting until ALL of Palestine (meaning isreal as well) AND hold 33% of the government positions within the PA..That Russ, Habibi, would make the PA government a terrorist organization.

Abbas 1st step as mandated by the road map is to DISARM Hamas and Co., temporary ceasefire is not disarment. So, I wonder if Abbas cannot disarm an entity that has openly and repeatedly declared that it will not quit killing jews until Israel is no longer existant., who will?
 
  • #29
Zero
Let's get back to basics here...when a terrorist is a suicide bomber, how do you retaliate? How can you? HE IS DEAD, REMEMBER?!? How does Israel respond? Rocket attacks, of course, like in any police action. Remember, Israel is occupying Palestinian land, and at best should act as a policing force. Instead, they treat thios land of civilians, woman and children and old people included, in the same manner as they would treat a battlefield. Treating someone's home, their farms, their backyards as nothing but a battlefield, is to disregard human life.
 
  • #30
kat
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Originally posted by Zero
Let's get back to basics here...when a terrorist is a suicide bomber, how do you retaliate? How can you? HE IS DEAD, REMEMBER?!? How does Israel respond? Rocket attacks, of course, like in any police action. Remember, Israel is occupying Palestinian land, and at best should act as a policing force. Instead, they treat thios land of civilians, woman and children and old people included, in the same manner as they would treat a battlefield. Treating someone's home, their farms, their backyards as nothing but a battlefield, is to disregard human life.

Your basics have a funny way of glossing over the details and ignoring the israeli reality. But, yes, let's get to the basics. Maybe you can tell me what the acceptable number of Jews going about their day to day business and dying due to being directly targetted and purposely murdered should be before they should go into the territories, and if you don't see it as correct military protocal for the IDF to use the air to directly target the leadership of the organization that quite literally cultivates young men and women for suicide missions, exactly, in as much detail as possible do you see them "policing" the situation?

Considering abu mazen himself has stated that the PA is in no position to fight the terrorists, and given that abu mazen has also stated that he has no intention of fighting the terrorists, and given that rantissi has said that he was going to do everything he can to ruin any chance for the road map to work,indeed that he would not stop until Israel is no longer an entity, what is israel suppose to do? (and now for the sarcasm)
besides handing out tee-shirts with bullseyes and "sacrifice for peace" written on them?

Can you answer these basics?
 
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  • #31
Zero
I am not for a moment suggesting that Israel do nothing. Again, though...the guilty party is already dead, so who do you blame? And what is the appropriate response level to punish someone for a crime in which the criminal dies in the act?


You say that israel has the right to target terrorists. I say that bercause terrorists wear no uniform, have little centralized organization, and live among the civilian noncombatant population...I cannot support the concept that a 'targeted' strike can be made with a missile.
 
  • #32
kat
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Originally posted by Zero
I am not for a moment suggesting that Israel do nothing.
If you are not suggesting doing nothing, then maybe you will answer my previous questions...
Again, though...the guilty party is already dead, so who do you blame?
There is such a thing as complicity in a crime, particularly in military matters. Inducing young men and women from the early ages of childhood to become suicidal martyrs for Allah, seducing children by promises of glorification if they strap bombs upon themselves, but even more then this DIRECTLY coordinating attacks, training these children to carry out attacks, funding them and arranging for transportation and elaborate plans to enable them to carry out attacks is criminal, the crime is not singular when their is a multitude of participants in an organized manner.
And what is the appropriate response level to punish someone for a crime in which the criminal dies in the act?
This is for the PA to answer as it is their duty to police this area. A duty that as I have previously pointed out they have stated they were not willing, and/or able to carry out.


You say that israel has the right to target terrorists. I say that bercause terrorists wear no uniform, have little centralized organization, and live among the civilian noncombatant population...I cannot support the concept that a 'targeted' strike can be made with a missile.
actually, what I said is this "if you don't see it as correct military protocal for the IDF to use the air to directly target the leadership of the organization that quite literally cultivates young men and women for suicide missions, exactly, in as much detail as possible do you see them "policing" the situation?" A question you repeatedly refuse to answer.
 
  • #33
Zero
I keep answering it in every thread we do this in...you treat the apprehension of criminals as a police matter...and police don't use missiles!
 
  • #34
Zero
If you want more detail..you go into houses to pull out supposed terrorists, you arrest them, you try them publicly, and then you dole out punishment. You do not fire a missle into a building to get a suspected terrorist, especially if his family also lives in the building.
 
  • #35
kat
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Originally posted by Zero
I keep answering it in every thread we do this in...you treat the apprehension of criminals as a police matter...and police don't use missiles!

This is not an area that Israel is supposed to be policing, it has been turned over to the Palestinians to police. As I mentioned before, abu mazen has stated that the PA is in no position to fight the terrorists, and abu mazen has also stated that he has no intention of fighting or disarming the terrorists, and if this is not bad enough rantissi has said that he will not stop until every one of the zionists is dead and no longer occupying greater palestine, this of course as I said means Israel.

If you want more detail..you go into houses to pull out supposed terrorists, you arrest them, you try them publicly, and then you dole out punishment. You do not fire a missle into a building to get a suspected terrorist, especially if his family also lives in the building.


Actually, I am looking for even more detail then this. When you use words as "policing" "arresting" I envision a number of police cruisers incircling the criminals house and charging in to remove him while the neighbors do not interfere and stand back out of the way watching. I don't see this as a reality in the midst of the HAMAS stronghold in enemy territory. So maybe, if you don't mind a bit more detail and we can end this portion of our debates once and for all.
 
  • #36
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zero
Remember, Israel is occupying Palestinian land...
Since there has never been a country called "Palestine" Israel can't be occupying its land. Israel is occupying Syrian and Egyptian land.
Russ-I believe it would be difficult to find any army that has less then a 40% noncombatant death rate for armed conflicts and if anyone can come up with dependable numbers that show otherwise I'd be grateful.
The numbers are difficult, but I agree with your estimate. However, I was thinking ratios, not percentages. 40% (.4) is a GOOD ratio historically speaking. If you accept at face value the 3,300 or so civilian deaths estimated in Iraq and guess at 33,000 military deaths (sound ok?) that gives a .1 ratio for this war I think that if you go back to WWII and before, the ratios go well above 1 - maybe even 10. Hell, to some civilizaions, the natural conclusion to a victory in war was genocide. Oh wait - we still have a few of those around today.
they will never stop fighting until ALL of Palestine (meaning isreal as well) AND hold 33% of the government positions within the PA..That Russ, Habibi, would make the PA government a terrorist organization
Where Arafat went wrong is he (appeared to anyway) want to bring Hamaas into the fold and work with them. That made Arafat's governement a terrorist organization. Abaas on the other hand is taking the opposite stand: he's trying to drive a wedge between Hamaas and the government - forcing them to moderate BEFORE gaining legitimacy. No, certainly that will never happen. But what could happen is that Hamaas will gradually become so isolated and alienated that they will be irrelevant. I hope that they go the way of the KKK - when the KKK holds a rally these days they get a dozen members and a thousand people protesting against them.
Let's get back to basics here...when a terrorist is a suicide bomber, how do you retaliate? How can you? HE IS DEAD, REMEMBER?!?
So you are suggesting that all terrorist bombings are unconnected acts of individuals with no supporting organization behind them? He, hehe, heheheheheheh, bwahahahahahahahah!!!! Zero, you crack me up sometimes.

Zero, you are using police and military terminology very loosely when it suits you. Terrorists and terrorist organizations have a very specific (albeit complex) international standing. Terrorists and their organizations are illegal combatants. They get NEITHER the rights of criminals NOR the rights of soldiers. You would suggest they get the rights of both.
 
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  • #37
Zero
I am not using terms loosely, exactly...this is a complex situation, and straight millitary tactics are frankly inappropriate. On a battlefield, EVERYONE is a combatant. When we talk about terrorists, we are talking about un-uniformed combatants mixed in with teh general populace. Bombs and missiles are not the proper tools for the job.
 
  • #38
schwarzchildradius
I was watching Christian Broadcasting the other day, the only news on at the time, and there was a story that Christians are angry with Bush-Sharon road-map because it gave away too much of the Gaza strip, which the Bible clearly states in Ezekiel belongs to the Jews.

So I have a question here: does Sharon's government truly control the Israeli military, or is the military engaged in an eye-for-an-eye tribal war simply licensed by the government?
 
  • #39
Ganshauk
Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
So I have a question here: does Sharon's government truly control the Israeli military, or is the military engaged in an eye-for-an-eye tribal war simply licensed by the government? [/B]

Round and round and round.

What does it matter.

The harsh truth is, as long as anyone remains alive, they just wont let it go. In the meantime, they will embroil us all in thier brutality. Fry the lot. Period.

We can't afford such BS anymore.
 
  • #40
schwarzchildradius
"Nuke Them All" --written in the dust at ground zero.
 
  • #41
kat
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Originally posted by Zero
I am not using terms loosely, exactly...this is a complex situation, and straight millitary tactics are frankly inappropriate. On a battlefield, EVERYONE is a combatant. When we talk about terrorists, we are talking about un-uniformed combatants mixed in with teh general populace. Bombs and missiles are not the proper tools for the job.

Well, I, for one, am still waiting for your reply detailing the proper tools and methods for the job.


Originally posted by Kat
I am looking for even more detail then this. When you use words as "policing" "arresting" I envision a number of police cruisers incircling the criminals house and charging in to remove him while the neighbors do not interfere and stand back out of the way watching. I don't see this as a reality in the midst of the HAMAS stronghold in enemy territory. So maybe, if you don't mind a bit more detail and we can end this portion of our debates once and for all.
 
  • #42
Zero
First off, there is a difference between 'enemy territory' and the homes of civilians.

Secondly, if they have identified a Hamas leader, they can send troops in to get him. Launching a missle or dropping a bomb is safer for the Israelis, of course, but it isn't teh proper thing to do. You go get the PA police, you go in together, grab the guy you are looking for, and deal with him. It would take a reworking of the Israeli soldiers and Palestinian police...


Plus, the idea that Israel 'retaliates' tro a terrorist bombing is simply insane to me. It gives teh appearance of 'eye for an eye' instead of justice.
 
  • #43
russ_watters
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Originally posted by Zero
It would take a reworking of the Israeli soldiers and Palestinian police...
If the PA police don't cooperate, can the Israeli soldiers go in alone? They have done so in the past - it usually results in MORE civilian and military deaths than a chopper attack because the mere presence of the Israeli troops incites violence against the troops.
 
  • #44
drag
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Greetings !
Originally posted by Zero
Secondly, if they have identified a Hamas leader, they can send troops in to get him. Launching a missle or dropping a bomb is safer for the Israelis, of course, but it isn't teh proper thing to do. You go get the PA police, you go in together, grab the guy you are looking for, and deal with him. It would take a reworking of the Israeli soldiers and Palestinian police...
HA ! HA ! HA !
That's one of the funniest things I ever read in this
forum. You have no idea of what kind of forces you need
to go into a Palestinian city with any degree of safety
and what the casualty rate on both sides would be. Aspecialy
in the Gaza strip where the main Hamass strongholds are.
Not to mention that arrests are being carried out all the
time, but this happens in the villages and the smaller
towns where it is reasonably possible. Even then each such
opeartion is carried out by tanks and the most heavilly
armed transports during the nights and practicly each such
operation encounters fire from light weapons and the
occasional rocket or mines. And, not to further mention
that it is not difficult for these people to escape
once they know the IDF forces are close and coming to get
them.

The same way I don't venture into physics discussions when
I get to a level that my actual knowledge doesn't reach, I do
not see why people who have no real idea of what they're
talking should pollute this forum with BS. :wink:
Originally posted by Zero
Plus, the idea that Israel 'retaliates' tro a terrorist bombing is simply insane to me. It gives teh appearance of 'eye for an eye' instead of justice.
If there were suicide bombings and victims of shooting gangs
every once in a couple of days in the US, I'm pretty certain
that the ones responsible and the whole area they live in would
be "off the map" - literally, very fast.

Targeted assasinations are the best solution for dealing
with terrorists. The actions take out the important people
who manage the organizations. These actions make such
"jobs" less lucritive and make these people hide and waste
resources and time they would've otherwise used to plan
and carry out terrorist attacks.

As for Abu Mazen, never mind his limmited authority, one
of the important factors that he DOES has full control of is
the Palestinian TV stations. Nevertheless, these TV stations
keep showing the same propoganda as always and directly calling
for people to kill Israelis and destroy Israel, aspecialy in
an increasing manner after the last few days of escalating
violence.

Live long and prosper.
 
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  • #45
kat
26
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Originally posted by Zero
First off, there is a difference between 'enemy territory' and the homes of civilians.

Secondly, if they have identified a Hamas leader, they can send troops in to get him. Launching a missle or dropping a bomb is safer for the Israelis, of course, but it isn't teh proper thing to do. You go get the PA police, you go in together, grab the guy you are looking for, and deal with him. It would take a reworking of the Israeli soldiers and Palestinian police...


Plus, the idea that Israel 'retaliates' tro a terrorist bombing is simply insane to me. It gives teh appearance of 'eye for an eye' instead of justice.

Zero-When the enemy hides within, prepares and stores their weapons, trains their members and even tunnels under IDF security points from within civilian homes that area very quickly becomes enemy territory, and if your planning to "extract" and "arrest" an enemy who would very much like to see you dead, or better yet if you are like someone like you and are planning to send young men and women in that area for this job they darn well better realize they are entering enemy territory.
As for joint security maneuvers, it's been done, it ended tragicly. In fact the IDF even helped arm Palestinian security forces, as the joint maneuvers proceeded the violence increased considerably and then at some point they began to realize their own weapons were being used against them, finally during a joint patrol the palestinian police officer turned, fired upon his israeli partner killing him. That was the end of joint maneuvers and shortly after the bloody 2nd intifada started.
As for entering the area and attempting to arrest the Hama's member, that was attempted earlier this week, remember? they ended up having a huge shoot out, killed 2 hamas and finally arrested 1. Since Israel has started using helicopters and targeting missiles, believe it or not, civilian injuries,deaths and damage to properties have been reduced considerably. Everything that was mentioned above is very true and you should perhaps study the security issue a bit more.
As for the tit for tat bit, that's not really the situation. The Israeli's and yes, probably Arafat and Abu also realize that as during the Oslo accords, the HAMAS will escalate violence by increasing the suicide attacks. Earlier this week, the day before the horrible bus suicide bombing that killed so many, Israeli attacked in order to prevent a planned suicide attack. Evidently they were right on the money as these suicide attacks are not planned a day in advance, they are very carefully planned, using a number of people to get the suicide bomber there seperate from the belt/bomb and then setting up the drop off etc.
The only way there will be peace in this area is if the HAMAS is stopped, they will not reason with Israeli's ever. They do not want it to exist, in any part. Period. They've said this repeatedly, publicly.
 
  • #46
Zero
Originally posted by kat
Zero-When the enemy hides within, prepares and stores their weapons, trains their members and even tunnels under IDF security points from within civilian homes that area very quickly becomes enemy territory, and if your planning to "extract" and "arrest" an enemy who would very much like to see you dead, or better yet if you are like someone like you and are planning to send young men and women in that area for this job they darn well better realize they are entering enemy territory.
As for joint security maneuvers, it's been done, it ended tragicly. In fact the IDF even helped arm Palestinian security forces, as the joint maneuvers proceeded the violence increased considerably and then at some point they began to realize their own weapons were being used against them, finally during a joint patrol the palestinian police officer turned, fired upon his israeli partner killing him. That was the end of joint maneuvers and shortly after the bloody 2nd intifada started.
As for entering the area and attempting to arrest the Hama's member, that was attempted earlier this week, remember? they ended up having a huge shoot out, killed 2 hamas and finally arrested 1. Since Israel has started using helicopters and targeting missiles, believe it or not, civilian injuries,deaths and damage to properties have been reduced considerably. Everything that was mentioned above is very true and you should perhaps study the security issue a bit more.
As for the tit for tat bit, that's not really the situation. The Israeli's and yes, probably Arafat and Abu also realize that as during the Oslo accords, the HAMAS will escalate violence by increasing the suicide attacks. Earlier this week, the day before the horrible bus suicide bombing that killed so many, Israeli attacked in order to prevent a planned suicide attack. Evidently they were right on the money as these suicide attacks are not planned a day in advance, they are very carefully planned, using a number of people to get the suicide bomber there seperate from the belt/bomb and then setting up the drop off etc.
The only way there will be peace in this area is if the HAMAS is stopped, they will not reason with Israeli's ever. They do not want it to exist, in any part. Period. They've said this repeatedly, publicly.

You know I love you like a brother...

Nevrtheless, when Israel, in the name of fighting terrorism, kills a 2 year old, there needs to be a serious investigation of the tactics involved, this isn't, after all, an isolated incident, but a trend within the Israeli military.
 
  • #47
kat
26
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Originally posted by Zero
You know I love you like a brother...
Zero, hon, I have 7 brothers and I do remember how they liked to beat on me when I did not agree with them :wink: but even then, they loved me..but as a sister....*cough*

Nevrtheless, when Israel, in the name of fighting terrorism, kills a 2 year old, there needs to be a serious investigation of the tactics involved, this isn't, after all, an isolated incident, but a trend within the Israeli military.


Yes, deaths of civilians should always be investigated, whether it be Isreali or Palestinian. Innocent victims in Gaza are no less tragic than innocent victims in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv or anywhere else. War sucks, Zero, and as much as you want to use the word "policing" it wont' change that this is very much a war, one which I would very much like to see stop. Immediately. Now. Forever.

But, it seems to me you very much want to ignore the reality of the on ground situation for both sides. What safe, non-civilian threatening method do you have in mind? A decisive locking of arms with Rantisi around a campfire and an aggressive verse of Kumbaya? Maybe the assertion of American power a la Monica Lewinsky, on both knees? Do you think perhaps that whoever confronts the radical hardliners who object violently and react murderously to any peace iniative including the Roadmap may have to use some counter-violence?

Earlier this week, Rantisi vowed a jihad in which every single Jew in all of "occupied Palestine", and that includes of course all of Israel, is killed. Not a single one of them is to survive. I realize that Israel attacking Hamas is far from ideal. It would be much better if the recognized, legitimate Palestinian government of Abu Mazen took the reins of power, as is its obligation, and controlled and policed its own people. But many Palestinians say they will not "do the dirty work" of Israel, as if the disarming and dismantling of groups like Hamas were not, first and foremost, Palestinian obligations and interests, but rather Israeli ones. Abu Mazen wants to be the government but doesn't want to be the police. He doesn't want to enforce a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence in Palestinian territory, which is perhaps the most basic obligation of any government, because he fears this will lead to civil war.

If a Palestinian government willing to live in peace with its neighbors is in itself sufficiently provocative and offensive to enough Palestinians that civil war is threatened, then perhaps the best alternative is a sort of temporary "mandate" or trusteeship, occupation by some outside power until they are ready for sovereignty and independence in peaceful coexistence with Israel. But of course the occupation force will itself need to disarm the terrorists and militias together with a cooperative PA government, or will have to disarm both the opposition groups like Hamas AND the PA. Someone is going to have to do it, and personally, I would be very pleased if it were not Israel, but I see noone else capable stepping up to bat, do you?
 
  • #48
Zero
Kat...besides the brotherly noogie I always send your way, I have to say that we cannot let the perfec5t be the enemy of the good. I don't have a perf3ect solution; that doesn't make current Israeli tactics correct of fair or just. Honestly, I think the idiot American millionaires who support Israel for religious regiions should buy the whole population of Israel an island to live on. After all, they don't seem to be able to live in peace with neighbors...
 
  • #49
kat
26
0
Originally posted by Zero
Kat...besides the brotherly noogie I always send your way, I have to say that we cannot let the perfec5t be the enemy of the good. I don't have a perf3ect solution; that doesn't make current Israeli tactics correct of fair or just. Honestly, I think the idiot American millionaires who support Israel for religious regiions should buy the whole population of Israel an island to live on. After all, they don't seem to be able to live in peace with neighbors...

Zero, if you really were my li'l brother right now, I would take away your desert! Shame on you for ignoring history. After all, the population of israel escaped to israel because it's neighbors thought they should be hunted down and exterminated, 100's of thousands of them refugees from palestine, transjordan, syria, iraq, lebanon, many murdered before they could escape..all leaving their homes and belongings behind. It also seems, apparently that the Arab population within Israel, members of which belong to the Israeli government aren't being slaughtered, nor are the thousands upon thousands of palestinians refugees who returned to israel and live and work there as israeli citizens. Funny, I see no jews taking part in the Palestinian government, in fact even isreali's who are on the side of the Palestinians, wanting to work with them and for them are chased out of palestine, or asked to leave for their own safety. Why should Israeli families, both Arab and Jewish many of who's families have lived in greater palestine for generation, upon generation, upon generation, unbroken, have to leave because islamic fundamentalist can't accept jews who refuse to live under dhimmi? you do know the history of dhimmi don't you? Sorry, but the time for islamic fundamentalist, racist, murderous, actions should be ended. today. forever.
 
  • #50
russ_watters
Mentor
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Originally posted by Zero
I don't have a perf3ect solution; that doesn't make current Israeli tactics correct of fair or just.
Zero, there are a LOT of people who think exactly as you do here. And even the people in this thread who disagreed with you understand that the Israeli responses aren't perfect (clearly). Its one thing to criticize someone's actions, but a valid criticism MUST include a viable alternative to the current course of action.

I laugh every time I see a sign or a t-shirt that says "War is not the answer." Do you know why? You never ever see on the back of the sign or t-shirt "_________ is the answer." Criticism is easy. Finding real solutions is not easy nor is it ever perfect.

Incidentally, I stated a few days ago that I though the Israeli rocket attack was a mistake because of the political implications - ie it would undermine the peace process. I changed my mind and I agree with kat - with Hamaas the way it is, there can be no peace process. I think the world saw the events of the past week and understands that Hamaas will do anything they can to prevent peace from ever occurring and that gives Israel a rare opportunity to take the gloves off and try to actively take down Hamaas.

If the Israelis can do enough damage to Hamaas over the next few weeks or months months and if the new PA leadership isn't murdered by Hamaas for trying to achieve peace, there could be a real chance for peace.

Though I am still hopeful, I was naive a week ago to think that the PA leadership sitting down at the negotiation table would be enough. They gave Hamaas the opportunity to join them in a search for peace and now they must make the tough decision and cut Hamaas off completely. Only by destroying Hamaas (with the help of the Israeli military) can the PA leadership have the power to negotiate for real. Hell, this could even be the thing that brings the two sides together - the PA and Israel fighting together to destroy a common enemy. No, I won't hold my breath on that though.
 

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