Tractrix on a line below the x-axis

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mathematical modeling of a tractrix, specifically focusing on deriving the equation when the hitch point is positioned on a line below the x-axis (y = -mx). Participants explore the implications of this adjustment and seek assistance in formulating the appropriate equations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Dr. Edward seeks the equation of a tractrix with the hitch point not on the x-axis but on a line below (y = -mx).
  • One participant suggests that vertical and horizontal shifts can be achieved by modifying the equations accordingly.
  • Dr. Edward expresses difficulty in simplifying the integration task presented in Sreenavisan's work and requests a specific form of the equation (y = f(x) or y = f(t)).
  • Another participant doubts that Sreenavisan provides a simple formula, suggesting that numerical algorithms may have been used instead.
  • Participants discuss the known solution for the tractrix when the hitch point travels along the x-axis and provide a parameterized version of the equations.
  • Dr. Edward grapples with the results from the equations provided and seeks clarification on achieving the desired position of the tractrix cusp.
  • There is a suggestion that the slope of the hitch line may need to be adjusted to align the cusp correctly.
  • Dr. Edward proposes the idea that the sloped hitch line might have a y-intercept, which could explain the behavior of the tractrix cusp.
  • Another participant explains how to keep the cusp at a specific location by rotating the graph around the initial hitch end point.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion contains multiple competing views and remains unresolved regarding the exact formulation of the tractrix equation with the specified conditions. Participants express uncertainty about the simplicity of the resulting equations and the adjustments needed for the cusp's position.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of deriving a simple function for the tractrix and the potential need for numerical methods. There are unresolved aspects regarding the dependence on specific parameters and the implications of the hitch line's slope.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying mathematical modeling of curves, particularly in the context of tractrix equations and their applications in physics and engineering.

Dr Edward
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The cusp of the tractrix is on the y-axis.
I have been studying Sreenavisan et al (Mechanism and Machine Theory 45 (2010) 454–466)
Email me for copy, if needed.
What I need is the equation of a tractrix with the hitch point not on the x-axis but on a line below (y=-mx).
Any help would be gratefully received.
Dr Edward
 
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Dr Edward said:
The cusp of the tractrix is on the y-axis.
I have been studying Sreenavisan et al (Mechanism and Machine Theory 45 (2010) 454–466)
Email me for copy, if needed.
What I need is the equation of a tractrix with the hitch point not on the x-axis but on a line below (y=-mx).
Any help would be gratefully received.
Dr Edward

Hello Dr Edward and welcome to MHB! ;)

We can move a graph vertically by replacing every occurrence of $y$ by $y-b$.
The result is shifting the graphs upwards by $b$.
Similarly we can shift a graph horizontally by replacing every occurrence of $x$ by $x-a$.
 
Thank you very much. That is indeed helpful.
Here is an excerpt from SreenavisanView attachment 8556
In all his brilliance he makes the integrating task like getting an ice cream.
I tried MathCad and the result was kilometres long.
My knowledge of maths is not that good to simplify.
I need an equation y=f(x) or y=f(t).
Hope you can help
Cheers
Edward
 

Attachments

  • Sreenavisan.JPG
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Dr Edward said:
Thank you very much. That is indeed helpful.
Here is an excerpt from Sreenavisan
In all his brilliance he makes the integrating task like getting an ice cream.
I tried MathCad and the result was kilometres long.
My knowledge of maths is not that good to simplify.
I need an equation y=f(x) or y=f(t).
Hope you can help
Cheers
Edward

I kind of doubt that Sreenavisan has a nice simple formula in the form $y=f(x)$.
Instead I think he integrated and drew the graph with a numerical algorithm.
Note that the graph has 3 possible values for $y$ at $x=-0.1$.
That doesn't sound like a simple function of $x$ does it?

Anyway, if the hitch point travels along the x-axis, the known solution is (see Tractrix on MathWorld)
$$x=L \arsech \frac y L -\sqrt{L^2-y^2}$$
Finding a rotated form of this is bound to be horrible.

Alternatively, we have the parametrized version:
$$\begin{cases}x(t)=L(t-\tanh t) \\ y(t)=L \sech t\end{cases}$$
We can rotate and shift this as desired.
Let me skip the steps for now and jump to the result:
$$\begin{cases}X(t)=x_{e,0} + \frac L{\sqrt{1+m^2}}({(t-\tanh t) - m \sech t})\\
Y(t)=y_{e,0} + \frac L{\sqrt{1+m^2}}({m(t-\tanh t) + \sech t})\end{cases}$$
In your case we have approximately $(x_{e,0},y_{e,0})=(6,6)$, $m=1$, and $L=10$.
If we fill that in, we get the following graph from Wolfram|Alpha:

View attachment 8557

Looks the same as yours doesn't it?
 

Attachments

  • angled_tractrix.jpg
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Wow
Thank you very much
Edward
 
Sorry to trouble you again.
I graphed your equations and got the same result as you. (exciting for me).
Then I played with the coefficients and could not get the position I am looking for.
Here's the MathCad result with different numbers.View attachment 8558
What am i doing wrong?
Here's where I want to be:View attachment 8559
Hope you can help.
Edward
 

Attachments

  • Graph1.JPG
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  • Graph 2.JPG
    Graph 2.JPG
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Looks like $m=-1$ was not substituted correctly...
 
Nice curves - thank you very much.
I have to add a value (shown at the red dot in the picture) to align the cusp to P(0,5).
Also when I change the slope the cusp needs adjustment.
Any idea why this should be?
View attachment 8562
Once again, thanks for bringing me this far.
Edward
 

Attachments

  • Graph.JPG
    Graph.JPG
    28.5 KB · Views: 121
  • #10
Hello Klaas,
Hate to be a nuisance but I had a thought.
Is it possible that the sloped hitch line has a y-intercept?
That might explain why the tractrix cusp does not stay on the y-axis.
Would love an answer. A solution? Even better.
Thanks for your input so far.
Edward
 
  • #11
We rotate the graph around the initial hitch end point $(x_{e,0},y_{e,0})$.
So that point always remains the same, and the sloping hitch line intersects it.
The cusp rotates around it just like everything else.

The location of the cusp is $\left(\frac{mL}{\sqrt{1+m^2}}, \frac{L}{\sqrt{1+m^2}}\right)$.
To keep it in the same spot at $(x_{cusp},y_{cusp})$ we can use:
\begin{cases}X(t)=x_{cusp} + \frac L{\sqrt{1+m^2}}({(t-\tanh t) - m(\sech t - 1)})\\
Y(t)=y_{cusp} + \frac L{\sqrt{1+m^2}}({m(t-\tanh t) + (\sech t} - 1))\end{cases}

If we pick $(x_{cusp},y_{cusp})=(0,L)$, the cusp will stay at $(0,L)$.
 
  • #12
Thanks Heaps.
Works beautifully
Edward
 

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