Two functions in two variables

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter jeffceth
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Functions Variables
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding functions f_1 and f_2 that define sequences a_n and b_n based on recursive relationships involving two variables. Participants explore methods to derive these functions from given initial values and equations, with a focus on the implications of linear algebra and Markov chains.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about how to start solving the problem and notes the challenge of deriving general forms from specific sample values.
  • Another participant suggests using linear algebra to express the recursive equations in a way that simplifies the problem, indicating it can be treated as a Markov chain.
  • A participant provides sample values for a and b, emphasizing that the entire sequence can be generated from these values, which complicates finding a general solution.
  • One participant attempts to manipulate the equations to derive new forms but notes the complexity of the resulting expressions, indicating a potential difficulty in manual calculations.
  • A participant expresses frustration with the complexity of the general equation and suggests that the nature of the answer does not align with their expectations.
  • Another participant questions the meaning of the previous statement about the series not being what they are looking for, indicating a lack of clarity in the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the approach to take or the nature of the solution. Multiple competing views and methods are presented, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the best path forward.

Contextual Notes

Some participants highlight the need for two initial values for the sequences, which may depend on the specific sample values provided. The discussion also reflects uncertainty about the complexity of the resulting equations and their implications for finding a general solution.

jeffceth
Messages
40
Reaction score
0
Sorry, I don't know what category to put this in.

Here's my problem:

I have some corresponding values for two variables a and b.

I also know that
[tex]a_n = 2a_{n-1} + b_{n-1}[/tex]
and
[tex]b_n = b_{n-1} + a_n[/tex]
for all a and b.

I need to find functions [tex]f_1[/tex] and [tex]f_2[/tex] in terms of n so that [tex]f_1(n) = a_n[/tex] and [tex]f_2(n) = b_n[/tex]

I don't really know where to start. I tried recombining the first two equations in myriad ways but I didn't get anywhere there. I have figured out that this would be pretty tough without the sample values to generate the others, and that the answers will be in general form because n = 1 could refer to any of the pairs of values, although all of them can be generated from a single pair. What do I do?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Why not start by telling us your sample values?

One way to do this problem if you know linear algebra is to express the equations a_n and b_n each in terms of a_(n-1) and b_(n-1). This is then a simple Markov chain problem. Luckily the matrix you get is diagonalizable, so its powers will yield an easy algebraic expression.
 
Last edited:
Sorry, should have included that. my sample values are:
a = 1 when b =1 and a = 3 when b = 4(I know the second is unneccessary). The entire sequence can be generated from these values, though this point is not neccessarily n = 1. This is why the answer should be in general form.
 
1) [tex]a_{n} = 2a_{n-1}+b_{n-1}[/tex]
2) [tex]b_{n} = b_{n-1} + a_{n}[/tex]

2) => [tex]a_{n} = b_{n}-b_{n-1}[/tex]

Put that into 1 to get

[tex]b_{n}-b_{n-1} = 2a_{n-1}+b_{n-1}[/tex]
3) [tex]b_{n} = 2(a_{n-1}+b_{n-1})[/tex]

2) => [tex]a_{n-1} = b_{n-1}-b_{n-2}[/tex]

3) => [tex]b_{n} = 2(b_{n-1}-b_{n-2}+b_{n-1}) = 4b_{n-1}-2b_{n-2}[/tex]

You need 2 initial values for b, one you're given, the other you generate from your initial condition on a. Now you can just use the equation for b and equation 2 to get a's equation, which will also need 2 initial values, one you're given, the other you get from b's initial value.
 
The general equation looks irritating to work out by hand, involving a lot of sqrt 2 and large expressions, unless my calculator is missing a major simplification somewhere.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your help!(I really should have seen that. It must be getting too late) Unfortunately the nature of the answer shows this series is not what I am looking for. I'll keep trying!
 
Unfortunately the nature of the answer shows this series is not what I am looking for
What do you mean?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K