UCLA campus police torture student, in the library

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A disturbing incident at UCLA involved campus police repeatedly tasering an unarmed Muslim student who had forgotten his ID and became confrontational when denied entry to the library. Witnesses reported that the student was on the ground, screaming in pain, while a crowd of bystanders urged the officers to stop the excessive use of force. The UCLA administration defended the police's actions as necessary for campus safety, but many criticized the response as excessive and inappropriate. Some discussions highlighted the student's initial resistance and the police's obligation to enforce rules, while others condemned the repeated tasering as unnecessary. The incident raises significant concerns about police conduct and the treatment of students on campus.
  • #151
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
I don't see how the guy being a jackass, begging for the encounter, or being wrong is evidence for the police doing the right thing.
:confused: :smile: Wan't to explain that?
 
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  • #152
Evo said:
OK, then if you move them and they start kicking and screaming, as they often do, what then?
That's when they progress from being passive resisters to being active resisters. You can't assume the person you're apprehending is going to turn into an active resister, just 'cause they usually do. Why then, would there be specific guidelines for passive resisters?
 
  • #153
In that case everyone is an active resistor because in the next two seconds anyone could suddenly start kicking and screaming?
 
  • #154
Evo said:
As opposed to actually beating him up?

The guy is a jackass. He begged for the encounter. He was wrong the whole time. Why is there even a discussion?
I agree. Why antagonize the police who are just trying to protect us? UCLA campus is not the safest place these days - someone was even stabbed in broad daylight in October.
 
  • #155
Gokul43201 said:
Because we're not arguing whether or not the guy is a jackass. Bring that up is immaterial. We're discussing whether or not the police appear to have used justifiable force.
From what I've seen, they did use justifiable force, actually, less than what would have been expected in a real world scenario. They were very restrained due to it being a college campus.
 
  • #156
Quis custodiet ipso custodes?

This is the third recent incident which has seen extensive coverage.

The other incidents involve video footage of a bloody-faced man getting hit in the face multiple times by a policeman who also has his knee on the man's neck, and a who is handcuffed and inside a police cruiser getting peppersprayed in the face. The chief of police recently announced that both of those were considered appropriate uses of force.

The cops have a tough job.
 
  • #157
Evo said:
:confused: :smile: Wan't to explain that?

What I mean is his character, his opinion or 'looking for trouble' doesn't make the police's actions any more ethically correct or incorrect.

So an exaggerated example; just because some guy is a dickhead doesn't mean shooting him becomes more ethically correct.
 
  • #158
Evo said:
From what I've seen, they did use justifiable force, actually, less than what would have been expected in a real world scenario. They were very restrained due to it being a college campus.
By their own guidelines, (again, in Russ' link) stun guns are recommended for active, not passive, resisters. Their own statement claims the student was limp - making him passive.
 
  • #159
Gokul43201 said:
By their own guidelines, (again, in Russ' link) stun guns are recommended for active, not passive, resisters. Their own statement claims the student was limp - making him passive.
But his verbal abuse and actions made him much more aggressive and inciting riot.
 
  • #160
Evo said:
But his verbal abuse and actions made him much more aggressive and inciting riot.
Not by the guidelines. Verbal abuse doesn't make you an active resister.
 
  • #161
I think that they could have used the stun gun one less time and could have subdued him since there were three, but I actually don't think that they should be fired for this. It wasn't that bad at all. The student was the agressor and wouldn't comply so they took action...and it was reasonable.

A stun gun does hurt, but the pain doesn't last for too long if you are stunned for a second or two (which is what happened in this person's case). I would definitely choose a stun gun over being hit that's for sure. I would equate using the stun gun on the subject for a lot longer to torture, but for a couple of seconds it's nothing.
 
  • #162
NateTG said:
The other incidents involve video footage of a bloody-faced man getting hit in the face multiple times by a policeman who also has his knee on the man's neck,
I saw this one too. I am convinced he was using a "subduing" level of force on a resisting subject. He was not trying to injure the guy - it was more like some "convincing" thumps to the face. (Specifically, he only drew his fist back about twelve inches).

This stuff looks horrifying, no doubt about that. But cops are there to do this job so we don't have to experience it. I do not envy them their jobs.
 
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  • #163
Gokul43201 said:
That's when they progress from being passive resisters to being active resisters. You can't assume the person you're apprehending is going to turn into an active resister, just 'cause they usually do. Why then, would there be specific guidelines for passive resisters?
He became an Active resistor when he started kicking and screaming when they tried to carry him downstairs.
 
  • #164
Moonbear said:
Each of the prior times he was tased, the "zap" was audible.
I don't hear them. Can you tell me the times that the zaps are heard?
 
  • #165
Gokul43201 said:
By their own guidelines, (again, in Russ' link) stun guns are recommended for active, not passive, resisters. Their own statement claims the student was limp - making him passive.
But, as I have shown, he became aggressive.
 
  • #166
Evo said:
He became an Active resistor when he started kicking and screaming when they tried to carry him downstairs.
But you say he was never tazed after this point...so that should be irrelevant.

I contend that the flailing of the legs was a response to the zapping. You say he was never zapped then (or subsequently)...and hence that there were no more than two tazings. This contradicts the police briefing which claims "multiple" tazings. It also doesn't explain the exact same cadence to his screaming.

Furthermore, if he was kicking, lashing about and actively resisting, you think the police will make a statement saying he was limp?
 
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  • #167
Gokul43201 said:
But you say he was never tazed after this point...so that should be irrelevant.
No, he was aggresive already, as I have pointed out.

nd that the flailing of the legs was a response to the zapping. You say he was never zapped then (or subsequently)...and hence that there were no more than two tazings.
No shocks after the handcuffing.

I have the video.
 
  • #168
He had already been tased prior to kicking and screaming while being carried down the stairs. Since we cannot see how exactly he was resisting during the first tasing we cannot say for sure if he was passive or active at that point in time. Although the police report seems to indicate passive.
 
  • #169
Evo said:
No, he was aggresive already, as I have pointed out.

No shocks after the handcuffing.

I have the video.
Are we looking at the same video?

At what time do you see him being cuffed?

Do you insist he wan't cuffed at 1:47, during the second tazing?
 
  • #170
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
He had already been tased prior to kicking and screaming while being carried down the stairs. Since we cannot see how exactly he was resisting during the first tasing we cannot say for sure if he was passive or active at that point in time. Although the police report seems to indicate passive.
The video shows him at the top of the stairs. All is calm. No one else in the room is looking at them. He is picked up on the stairs and goes into a fit, kicking and screaming while they carry him down stairs. It's all on film.
 
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  • #171
DaveC426913 said:
I saw this one too. I am convinced he was using a "subduing" level of force on a resisting subject. He was not trying to injure the guy - it was more like some "convincing" thumps to the face. (Specifically, he only drew his fist back about twelve inches).

The report apparently had 'distracting'. I'm not claiming that they acted inappropriately.

That said, I don't get this whole notiong of causing pain as equivalent to subduing someone. On the other hand I'm not sure that there's a better way.

BTW: There's plenty of UFC footage where people are pulling back less than 12 inches too , and they're not worried about injuring the other guy. <SHRUGS>
 
  • #172
Evo said:
The video shows him at the top of the stairs. All is calm. No one else in the room is looking at them. He is picked up on the stairs and goes into a fit, kicking and screaming while they carry him down stairs. It's all on film.
Which film? Certainly not the one linked in the OP! Are you looking at a different video?
 
  • #173
Yes, I'm beginning to think so too, Gokul.
 
  • #174
Gokul43201 said:
Which film? Certainly not the one linked in the OP! Are you looking at a different video?
Go to 3.08 minutes into the video, you'll see what I mean. Just watch from that point. NO TAZING.
 
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  • #175
You say it shows him up the top of the starts with no one looking. 3.08 on is where he is tazed/has a fit and screams and where he is clearly in cuffs, and from then on he is dragged down the stairs where people crowd around them.

Also before 3.08, with the 2nd tazing it appears as though he is passively resisting not actively. And you're not sure about the 1st tazing but the police said he was limp, and in the end it's the police's interpretation that matters.

Also I like to add that Russ's link are guidelines. And I think (though I'm not sure, since I don't live in America) that it's ultimately down to the policeman's discretion. The question is was there a better way?
 
  • #176
I can't hear any audible tasing sound anywhere in the film.
 
  • #177
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
You say it shows him up the top of the starts with no one looking. 3.08 on is where he is tazed/has a fit and screams and where he is clearly in cuffs, and from then on he is dragged down the stairs where people crowd around them.
Uhm no, he is sitting at the top of the stairs. The other people in the other room are oblivious to them.
 
  • #178
I'm pretty sure everyone was crowded around them gasping when they tased him with a few people saying "Stop it" and "That's cruel" etc. And hence there was a person filming it on his camera.
 
  • #179
You can't hear a stun gun when it's actually pressed against a person and discharged. You can only hear it when it's discharged into the air, usually as a threat.

- Warren
 
  • #180
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
I'm pretty sure everyone was crowded around them gasping when they tased him with a few people saying "Stop it" and "That's cruel" etc. And hence there was a person filming it on his camera.
Nope, go back and look at that clip again. 3:08 at the top of the stairs. Nothing, Calm. No one near them. Two officers.
 
  • #181
chroot said:
You can't hear a stun gun when it's actually pressed against a person and discharged. You can only hear it when it's discharged into the air, usually as a threat.

- Warren

Thanks this confirms something I was curious about. You can hear the 2nd stun gun crackling for multiple seconds but I wasn't sure whether or not it was pressed for all those seconds. Since the crackling was heard after the scream that suggests that he was tasered the cop left it on for a while in the air.
 
  • #182
@Evo

Thats because the guy is filming it from behind one of those cubicles. it's to the side of the crowd of people. Look at 1:56 there is a crowd, then from there is moves to the side to get a better view. You can only see 2 cops and a student leaning on the cubicle but sure enough next to the student on the cubicle there is a crowd. Once they start to pull him down the stairs the cameraman moves in behind the crowd and follows them and the crowd down.
 
  • #183
Evo said:
Go to 3.08 minutes into the video, you'll see what I mean. Just watch from that point. NO TAZING.
1. There is a tazing at 3:13, when you hear three screams from the student, identical to the three screams emitted after each of the first two tazings. Again, listen to the screams (00:30 to 00:33, 1:45 to 1:48 and 3:13 to 3:16) and tell me that the third time was just the guy yelling.

2. Even if the above were just a remarkable coincidence or that the guy was just incredibly skilled, there's still the matter of the second tazing (at 1:45), where it appears that the guy is already handcuffed. You claim he isn't. Can you tell me at what instants in this video you can see the guy's free hands?

3. You said the film shows him kicking as he's being taken down the stairs. I don't see that.

4. Your insistence that there were no more than two tazings essentially contradicts the admission of the police that there were multiple tazings.

Edit: 5. Furthermore, if there wasn't a tazing at 3:14, as you insist, then the kicking of the guy would be in contradiction to the police briefing that claimed he was limp.
 
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  • #184
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
@Evo

Thats because the guy is filming it from behind one of those cubicles. it's to the side of the crowd of people. Look at 1:56 there is a crowd, then from there is moves to the side to get a better view. You can only see 2 cops and a student leaning on the cubicle but sure enough next to the student on the cubicle there is a crowd. Once they start to pull him down the stairs the cameraman moves in behind the crowd and follows them and the crowd down.
No, when you look at the footage starting at 3:08, you see a bunch of people milling about a room and one person at the top of the stairs surrounded by 2 police officers. They grab his arms and he bucks up.
 
  • #185
I see 2 coppers at 3:08 grabbing his arms with 1 person leaning on the cubicle thing. Then he bucks and they start to take him down the stairs after the bucking.

Off to the left there is a crowd, just outside of the video though.
 
  • #186
186 posts into the thread and this heated battle is still on topic without being moved to another forum. Amazing. Good job everyone :smile:! I like the investigatory style of some of the arguments being presented.

I haven't seen the video yet. If the facts: he resisted/didn't comply, are true then I think this is being blown out of proportion.
 
  • #187
Gokul43201 said:
1. There is a tazing at 3:13, when you hear three screams from the student, identical to the three screams emitted after each of the first two tazings. Again, listen to the screams (00:30 to 00:33, 1:45 to 1:48 and 3:13 to 3:16) and tell me that the third time was just the guy yelling.
Honestly, I can't tell what he's going on about.

2. Even if the above were just a remarkable coincidence or that the guy was just incredibly skilled, there's still the matter of the second tazing (at 1:45), where it appears that the guy is already handcuffed. You claim he isn't. Can you tell me at what instants in this video you can see the guy's free hands?
Since I've never commented on this, you're making this up.

3. You said the film shows him kicking as he's being taken down the stairs. I don't see that.
Look again.

4. Your insistence that there were no more than two tazings essentially contradicts the admission of the police that there were multiple tazings.
I have never said how many times the guy might have been shocked. Please quote the post numbers where I said so.
 
  • #188
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7575/grabbinglm3.png

Here is a pic I took. I highlighted red to show that the policemen are clearly grabbing the boy already.

After that he does his little jump and then the coppers start to take him down as the -crowd- (off screen to the right) falls in behind them.
 
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  • #189
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/7575/grabbinglm3.png

Here is a pic I took. I highlighted red to show that the policemen are clearly grabbing the boy already.

After that he does his little jump and then the coppers start to take him down as the -crowd- (off screen to the right) falls in behind them.
I see two red circles.
 
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  • #190
Evo said:
I see two red circles.

The other circle is the other cop, with his arm around the other arm. (like in that lil diagram I did in MSpaint a bit back).
 
  • #191
What I want to know is how much money this freeking idiot is costing all of us. He NEEDED his student ID. He's a MORON.

What the hell was he thinking? Or was he intentionally trying to cause trouble?

He has no defense. He is wrong., End of argument. If the campus police want harsher methods to deal with students as a result of this, blame this idiot.
 
  • #192
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/1508/positionir7.png

Okay, that's the position the guy is in. The grey are where the policeman's arms go. The policeman on the left slides his right arm in, and the one of the right slides his left arm in. This completely immobilizes his arms. He cannot pull his arms apart because of the cuffs and he cannot bring them closer because of the policeman's arms. This is why his arms stay perfectly still when he kicks. Since I suck at drawing I couldn't draw in the policemen properly but this is my old diagram which shows the view of someone's back in that position with the yellow representing each of the policeman's arms.

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/245/cuffedholdtb1.png

Edit: Also note that both policemen have a hand free in this situation.
 
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  • #193
Evo said:
What I want to know is how much money this freeking idiot is costing all of us. He NEEDED his student ID. He's a MORON.

What the hell was he thinking? Or was he intentionally trying to cause trouble?

He has no defense. He is wrong., End of argument. If the campus police want harsher methods to deal with students as a result of this, blame this idiot.

He is stupid for forgetting his ID. Maybe he is a moron, maybe he is wrong about the abuse of power. But that isn't the point. As I said before being a moron doesn't suddenly enable the police to use harsher methods.
 
  • #194
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
He is stupid for forgetting his ID. Maybe he is a moron, maybe he is wrong about the abuse of power. But that isn't the point. As I said before being a moron doesn't suddenly enable the police to use harsher methods.
They are there to uphold restrictions, restrictions everyone has agreed to, like providing a valid ID.
 
  • #195
Evo said:
Honestly, I can't tell what he's going on about.
What? Did you not understand the point I was making?

Since I've never commented on this, you're making this up.

No, I'm not. You've said many times* that he wasn't zapped after being cuffed. Since he is clearly being zapped at 1:48, your claim implies that he wasn't cuffed at this point of time.

*
Evo said:
I saw him handcuffed at the end, show me where he was zapped after being handcuffed. I watched the video.

Evo said:
NO TASER. Not once after he was handcuffed.

In reponse to "(He was) getting shocked and Tasered as he was handcuffed", you said:
Evo said:
The video clearly shows that is not true.

Look again.
This is ridiculous but I just did...for probably the 27th time. There's nothing showing the guy kicking as he is being taken down the stairs. There only footage showing the guy is at the top of the stairs.

I have never said how many times the guy might have been shocked. Please quote the post numbers where I said so.
You've clearly said that he wasn't shocked after being cuffed (see quoted posts above). There are only two zappings before the 3:08 incident where you agree he is in cuffs. Therefore, by your own words, there are no more than two zappings in all.

This is getting quite ridiculous at this point. It seems to be impossible to have a logical discussion, and I've had about enough accusations for one night. I'm done with this thread.
 
  • #196
I don't think anyone is arguing that the boy should be let off. That he wasn't doing anything wrong, and didn't deserve to be enforced.

The question isn't on whether punishing him was wrong, rather whether the method employed was wrong. He definitely broke the rules. He definitely had to be removed. And tasering him first off was fine, but the multiple tasings were perhaps a bit of bad judgement on the policemen's part.
 
  • #197
Gokul43201 said:
There's nothing showing the guy kicking as he is being taken down the stairs. There only footage showing the guy is at the top of the stairs.
That's not true, you see him bordered on each side by people, then they grab his arms and he kicks back, his legs going up.

You've clearly said that he wasn't shocked after being cuffed (see quoted posts above). There are only two zappings before the 3:08 incident where you agree he is in cuffs. Therefore, by your own words, there are no more than two zappings in all.
I've never counted them, but if there were only two that can be counted, then I guess there are only two.

This is getting quite ridiculous at this point. It seems to be impossible to have a logical discussion, and I've had about enough accusations for one night. I'm done with this thread.
You're the one that seems to have a problem, not me. I can see the video, I can count the instances. I don't hate the people in charge, I look at all the details. In this instance, the kid was at fault. I don't know what the established protocol is, do you? Maybe they were within the guidelines, maybe they weren't. Are you an authority on this?
 
  • #198
Gelsamel Epsilon said:
I don't think anyone is arguing that the boy should be let off. That he wasn't doing anything wrong, and didn't deserve to be enforced.

The question isn't on whether punishing him was wrong, rather whether the method employed was wrong. He definitely broke the rules. He definitely had to be removed. And tasering him first off was fine, but the multiple tasings were perhaps a bit of bad judgement on the policemen's part.
I think everyone questions the multiple tasings, even though they were extremely mild.

But, we don't know the reasons behind it. We don't know what options there were. We can't make uneducated guesses. Can we?
 
  • #200
yep, not surprising.

"Okay kids, I'm here!

Yes, I was indeed at Powell Library at approximately 11:30 on Tuesday night, and yes I did see the entire event as it went down.

Let me start off by saying that the guy DEFINITELY was asking to get his ass kicked. He was being extremely rude with the campus patrol guys (who are college students...this was before the real UCPD got called in). He was not complying with their requests to leave the premises, and he was definitely itching for a fight. I actually know the guy and a few of his friends, and I can tell you that he's the kind of guy that loves to make trouble.

Just as a little backstory, one of the quotes the guy has on his facebook (which he now has taken down) was "I like to find the most difficult solutions to the simplest of problems".

He definitely taunted the UCPD into behaving the way they did with him.

Edit: Many people have questioned the fact that the cops tazed him and asked him to get up, and tazed him again even though he shouldn't have the capability to get up. This was not the case here to my knowledge, because the cops were using their "drive-stun" method which administers less of a jolt than normal. I believe this because anyone who can ramble on about this being the patriot act and yell at the top of his lungs should have the capability of getting up."

http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showpost.php?p=374081&postcount=3
 

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