News UK's Tuition Fee Protest (Images)

[Mathnomalous]

Wow, that's steep.

But I see that as unfair as you are introducing money as a deciding factor in where you can be educated, when I personally see it should be down to ability.

An ideal system would be one where the best in a subject go to the best facilities for that subject. Obviously, that's not how things work but I don't see why we can't try to work towards it.

Thanks to the UK's current system where all charges are virtually equal. Anyone can apply anywhere and the main deciding factor is what qualifications you leave school with.

You assume universities are in the business of educating when they are simply gatekeepers to the upper middle and higher class. You want people to be educated? Give them these 5 books:

• On the Origin of Species by C. Darwin
• The Wealth of Nations by A. Smith
• Crime and Punishment by F. Dovstoyevsky
• Communist Manifesto by Marx & Engels
• Candide by Voltaire

After reading those 5 your average person will have the basics of how modern society functions. Universities are nothing more than glorified country clubs for young people. Like most country clubs, the main goal is socialization and networking; that people become educated is a pleasant surprise.

 

[mheslep]

[...]Universities are nothing more than glorified country clubs for young people. Like most country clubs, the main goal is socialization and networking; that people become educated is a pleasant surprise.

If that's true, then why waste your time on forum catering to the interests of scientists and engineers?

 

[russ_watters]

You assume universities are in the business of educating when they are simply gatekeepers to the upper middle and higher class. You want people to be educated? Give them these 5 books:

• On the Origin of Species by C. Darwin
• The Wealth of Nations by A. Smith
• Crime and Punishment by F. Dovstoyevsky
• Communist Manifesto by Marx & Engels
• Candide by Voltaire

After reading those 5 your average person will have the basics of how modern society functions.

Not a bad list, but I think you missed Leviathan and Two Treatises of Government...

...oh, and...

Universities are nothing more than glorified country clubs for young people. Like most country clubs, the main goal is socialization and networking; that people become educated is a pleasant surprise.

...well those books won't get you past freshman year (and in many cases, past high school). And if you're going to be a scientist or engineer, you're pretty much outta luck: Locke was a smart guy, but he didn't have a lot to say about thermodynamcs or calculus.

You miss just about the entire point of college. Making students socialized and well rounded is a very distant second to the primary purpose: training them for careers.

 

[russ_watters]

If that's true, then why waste your time on forum catering to the interests of scientists and engineers?

Shhh. I don't want him to connect Adam Smith to thermodynamics, he'll pull down the average engineering salary!

 

[Mathnomalous]

And if you're going to be a scientist or engineer, you're pretty much outta luck: Locke was a smart guy, but he didn't have a lot to say about thermodynamcs or calculus.

But most people do not or should become scientists or engineers. Scientists and engineers make up a small portion of university students. I think here in the US, universities churn out more people with arts and humanities degrees.

You miss just about the entire point of college. Making students socialized and well rounded is a very distant second to the primary purpose: training them for careers.

I find this very interesting (and I agree with you on this). But, I get the impression that many college professors dislike the idea of the university as career training center; even universities themselves try to downplay their career training aspect and instead promote this "life of the mind" nonsense that can be obtained in a public library.

 

[Gokul43201]

And if higher education is privatized, you can expect the "best" schools to cater to the rich.

Why should you expect that?

 

[Mathnomalous]

If that's true, then why waste your time on forum catering to the interests of scientists and engineers?

I do not understand what you are trying to convey here.

 

[Gokul43201]

Yep, +1

I have to say, I still fail to understand the irony here. What if the US were much farther to the right that it presently is - a libertarian free market economy with virtually no government regulation of anything? Essentially the US of Right. Would you still think that the non-ironic thing for the US to do would be to move further to the right?

Edit: Missed a page of posts - will read through now.

 

[Mathnomalous]

Why should you expect that?

Because universities that manage to connect wealthy students with other wealthy students, will attract more wealthy students. Universities that manage to place its students in high paying positions will charge higher tuition and attract people who have the financial means to attend.

It is like buying a Mercedes Benz. MB knows the masses would buy a $1000 Benz, but why would MB do that when it knows it can sell its luxury cars for $80,000? Yet, that $80,000 Benz does the same basic function as a $16,000 Civic.

 

[Gokul43201]

Because universities that manage to connect wealthy students with other wealthy students, will attract more wealthy students. Universities that manage to place its students in high paying positions will charge higher tuition and attract people who have the financial means to attend.

So you don't think that somewhere along the way, the university will start spiraling downwards if it can not attract good students? That somehow, it can continue to accept (and perhaps graduate) year after year of super-rich kids (who have no motivation to excel), with no regard to their academic qualifications?

 

[russ_watters]

I find this very interesting (and I agree with you on this). But, I get the impression that many college professors dislike the idea of the university as career training center; even universities themselves try to downplay their career training aspect and instead promote this "life of the mind" nonsense that can be obtained in a public library.

I'm not sure where you are you get that idea, but it seems like the college-as-career-prep idea is prevalent and rising. The college I graduated from (Drexel) has tripled or quadrupled in size over the last 10 years and it is largely due to its marketing of (and success at) making sure its graduates get jobs.

Classroom learning, research, projects, papers, and exams are all critical to your academic pursuits. But to complete your education — to set you apart from other graduates — you must also gain experience in your chosen field. With Drexel Co-op, one of the oldest and most expansive co-operative education programs in the world, you can gain up to 18 months of résumé-enhancing experience by the time you graduate.

Drexel Co-op is based on paid employment in practical, major-related positions consistent with your interests and abilities; only a small percentage of students accept nonpaid co-ops. The benefits are obvious. Before graduation, you will have already sampled up to three different positions within your field of study. And after graduation, this experience pays off: recent graduates from Drexel typically receive a higher starting salary.

http://www.drexel.edu/undergrad/coop/

But most people do not or should become scientists or engineers. Scientists and engineers make up a small portion of university students. I think here in the US, universities churn out more people with arts and humanities degrees.

Just an example. Reading those books alone won't make you an investment banker or schoolteacher either.

Yes, there are still people who got to college to mingle, party, or find a spouse and yes, they do seem to take liberal arts. I didn't go to a predominantly liberal arts school, but I suppose if liberal arts students aren't interested in careers, then a predominantly liberal arts school wouldn't market itself as being for career training.

 

[mheslep]

I have to say, I still fail to understand the irony here. What if the US were much farther to the right that it presently is - a libertarian free market economy with virtually no government regulation of anything? Essentially the US of Right. Would you still think that the non-ironic thing for the US to do would be to move further to the right?

I'm not following your counter factual or its too late. But getting back to Russ's original statement, and using the definition for irony, "an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected": the US government is moving to the left in hopes that there lie better times. Yet, via Europe we are allowed foresight into what lies to the left, and we see there events that are contrary to what was, or might have been, expected (by the current US government).

 

[Mathnomalous]

So you don't think that somewhere along the way, the university will start spiraling downwards if it can not attract good students? That somehow, it can continue to accept (and perhaps graduate) year after year of entirely rich kids, with no regard to their academic qualifications?

I expect that to happen in the "middle-of-the-pack" schools. Places such as Harvard, Yale, and Princeton will always remain the bastion of wealth. Have you ever heard of the term a "Gentleman's C"? At least in the case of one famous POTUS, he went through a prestigious institution despite signs that he is not that bright.

I'm not sure where you are from or where you get that idea, but here in the US it seems like the college-as-career-prep idea is prevalent and rising. The college I graduated from (Drexel) has tripled or quadrupled in size over the last 10 years and it is largely due to its marketing of (and success at) making sure its graduates get jobs. Just an example.

Yes, you are correct. But it seems to me, the universities that normally advertise their career placement services are for-profits. I do not expect an MIT advertising logo like "Come to MIT, we'll get you a job at Google." And still, I get the sense people attend these institutions because it will benefit their career prospects. As an example, you know MIT placed its entire courseware online, for free. Why did MIT do this? Because it knows people will still claw their way to an MIT degree.

Look at Harvard's Mission Statement:

Harvard College adheres to the purposes for which the Charter of 1650 was granted: "The advancement of all good literature, arts, and sciences; the advancement and education of youth in all manner of good literature, arts, and sciences; and all other necessary provisions that may conduce to the education of the ... youth of this country..." In brief: Harvard strives to create knowledge, to open the minds of students to that knowledge, and to enable students to take best advantage of their educational opportunities.

To these ends, the College encourages students to respect ideas and their free expression, and to rejoice in discovery and in critical thought; to pursue excellence in a spirit of productive cooperation; and to assume responsibility for the consequences of personal actions. Harvard seeks to identify and to remove restraints on students' full participation, so that individuals may explore their capabilities and interests and may develop their full intellectual and human potential. Education at Harvard should liberate students to explore, to create, to challenge, and to lead. The support the College provides to students is a foundation upon which self-reliance and habits of lifelong learning are built: Harvard expects that the scholarship and collegiality it fosters in its students will lead them in their later lives to advance knowledge, to promote understanding, and to serve society.

Contrast it to Drexel's Mission Statement. Seems to me Harvard still promotes this idea of the well-rounded citizen and only vaguely alludes to high-paying careers.

Reading those books alone won't make you an investment banker or schoolteacher either.

I never implied that. However, if your main goal is to have an informed citizenry, all you need to promote is literacy and critical thinking, things that can be accomplished at the high school level.

 

[Gokul43201]

I'm not following your counter factual or its too late.

If it still doesn't make sense tomorrow, I shall try to rephrase.

But getting back to Russ's original statement, and using the definition for irony, "an outcome of events contrary to what was, or might have been, expected": the US government is moving to the left in hopes that there lie better times. Yet, via Europe we are allowed foresight into what lies to the left, and we see that events are contrary to what was, or might have been, expected (by the current US government).

My point: via Europe we are allowed foresight into what lies 7 marxes (fake unit) to our left, but not 2 marxes (i.e., why do we imagine the benefit curve is monotonically decreasing between the US and Europe?)

 

[mheslep]

If it still doesn't make sense tomorrow, I shall try to rephrase.

My point: via Europe we are allowed foresight into what lies 7 marxes (fake unit) to our left, but not 2 marxes (i.e., why do we imagine the benefit curve is monotonically decreasing between the US and Europe?)

Ok, got it. Hopefully this explains my skepticism: Decades ago after most of the West finally agreed that Stalin's Soviet Union, China under Mao was a disaster, we heard then (60's-80's) that Democratic Socialism from some European states was an enlightened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism)" " (between the US free market "way" and the Marxist "way"). Now above you are, as I see it, suggesting there's is yet room for a "fourth way", somewhere in the diminishing gap between the leftward moving US and the rightward moving Euro states. Just as a matter of probabilities, I don't see it, leaving alone for a moment my own political beliefs that any move to the left is anti-freedom.

 

[Gokul43201]

Ok, got it. Hopefully this explains my skepticism: Decades ago after most of the West finally agreed that Stalin's Soviet Union, China under Mao was a disaster, we heard then (60's-80's) that Democratic Socialism from some European states was an enlightened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way_(centrism)" " (between the US free market "way" and the Marxist "way"). Now above you are, as I see it, suggesting there's is yet room for a "fourth way", somewhere in the diminishing gap between the leftward moving US and the rightward moving Euro states. Just as a matter of probabilities, I don't see it, leaving alone for a moment my own political beliefs that any move to the left is anti-freedom.

That's close. What I suggest is that the benefit curve may have several bumps in its landscape and that it might be a good idea in the event of a sudden crisis to seek temporary shelter in the nearest local maximum (easily achieved by a few laws passed within a single legislative session) rather than seek out the most robust (potentially global) maximum (which might need very extensive legislative change). Specifically, the slope of the curve around our immediate position might point upwards to the left even if the more long-term behavior is upwards to the right.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

I find this very interesting (and I agree with you on this). But, I get the impression that many college professors dislike the idea of the university as career training center; even universities themselves try to downplay their career training aspect and instead promote this "life of the mind" nonsense that can be obtained in a public library.

The engineering program at my university (University of Arizona) is very career-oriented. Students were trained in real-world problems in class, senior design projects were sponsored by private companies, and career fairs are held every semester. It was also common to have professors from Raytheon, Honeywell, and IBM for engineering courses.

The way I see it, if you're not going to college to get a degree for a specific career, then what the heck are you doing there?

 

[cristo]

The problem with this thread is that most of the people on this forum are American, and thus used to spending a ridiculous amount of money on education. In Europe, this is not the case and, in fact, in the UK most of the politicians making the decisions were able to go to university for free.

I can safely say that with the tuition fees at £9,000 I would not have been able to afford to go to university. My undergrad degree was four years, so tuition would have been £36,000: add to that the loan to actually live at around £4,000 a year, gives £52,000. Now, what the government fails to add is that these loans will not be like the usual student loans that I got with no interest, but will be essentially a private loan (somewhat like student loans in the US).

And before someone say "well, you'll have to get a job while studying", that is not feasible. For a science student, the amount of time you are expected to put into your studies is way over that of a full working week (I think something like 60 hours was quoted to me once): there is no time to work on the side.

For those of you saying to just "get a scholarship", that is not possible either, since they do not exist. There is some help available for the poorest people, but there are no scholarships available which help the brightest students.

Finally, to answer Evo's point: yes, the Lib Dems did cost their manifesto in some amount of detail, and showed how they would eliminate tuition fees. However, what the public need to realize is that the Lib Dems did not get into power. We have a coalition government which is governing in accordance with the coalition agreement drawn up on that fateful day in May. These protests should have happened then, not now. The problem is that we are not used to coalition governments: in countries that normally have one, the main parties do not make such claims in their election manifestos, since they know they will not be able to hold them when the come to form the coalition government.

The way I see it, if you're not going to college to get a degree for a specific career, then what the heck are you doing there?

So, basically, the only degrees that should exist are the vocational ones: engineering, law, medicine? That's a very narrow-minded view.

 

[Gokul43201]

Unless I'm mistaken, tuition fees (in the UK) are subsidized via taxes. If the fees are being raised to some value closer to market rates, I imagine taxes would drop to lower values, as there is no longer a need for them to support education costs to the extent that they previously did (if not immediately, then at least over the medium-to-long-term)?

 

[cristo]

Unless I'm mistaken, tuition fees (in the UK) are subsidized via taxes. If the fees are being raised to some value closer to market rates, I imagine taxes would drop to lower values, as there is no longer a need for them to support education costs to the extent that they previously did (if not immediately, then at least over the medium-to-long-term)?

You might expect that to happen, but it won't: for example, VAT is due to increase by 2.5% in January.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

The problem with this thread is that most of the people on this forum are American, and thus used to spending a ridiculous amount of money on education. In Europe, this is not the case and, in fact, in the UK most of the politicians making the decisions were able to go to university for free.

Who says the tuition paid in the US is ridiculous, and not just reflective of how much it costs for all of the faculty, staff and facilities?

It seems to me a $50,000 investment in a degree which will net you well over a million more over your lifetime is a pretty safe bet.

And before someone say "well, you'll have to get a job while studying", that is not feasible.

It's pretty common for american students to have a job while in school, engineering included. I did...

So, basically, the only degrees that should exist are the vocational ones: engineering, law, medicine? That's a very narrow-minded view.

That view is based in reality, and can include arts and humanities degrees. Why pay all that money for a degree if you don't plan to use it in your future career choice?

 

[cristo]

It seems to me a $50,000 investment in a degree which will net you well over a million more over your lifetime is a pretty safe bet.

You *may* net over a million more, but then again you likely will not. The last figures I heard quoted were that, on average, a graduate can expect to earn £100,000 more in their lifetime.

It's pretty common for american students to have a job while in school, engineering included. I did...

That's because the american course-load is not as heavy as that in Europe.

That view is based in reality, and can include arts and humanities degrees. Why pay all that money for a degree if you don't plan to use it in your future career choice?

Well, firstly, I think the whole point of this thread is that Europeans do not agree with "paying all that money!". But still, who's to know what their future career will be when they decide what to take at university at 18 years of age?

 

[russ_watters]

Well, firstly, I think the whole point of this thread is that Europeans do not agree with "paying all that money!".

Since it's free, who cares if it's useless?
[that, setting aside of course, that whether they pay it directly in tuition or indirectly via taxes, they are still "paying all that money". It doesn't go away just because it is out of sight.]

From Starship Troopers, probably quoted/paraphrased from somewhere else: things that are given have no value. That is, of course, the entire argument against Marxism/the welfare state in one little sentence.

An argument that the guys saying the kids themselves should pay for school didn't use on me but is nevertheless valid is that if the kid is made to pay for school s/he will place more value on it, take it more seriously, and thus get more from it. But if the parents pay for it, they can at least apply some pressure. If neither pay for it, neither the parents nor the kid have an external reason to care.

But still, who's to know what their future career will be when they decide what to take at university at 18 years of age?

Not many people, but they better decide quick, otherwise they'll end up in art history when they should have been in aerospace engineering...er, wait, is college still free if you redo it?

 

[JaredJames]

The cuts being made are too severe and so far the only people not affected are the rich (aka, the government ministers). Like I said before, the PM admitted that by increasing the fees for students (citizens of Britain) it meant they didn't have to charge more to foreign students.

The aircraft carrier thing, well that's a silly move in my opinion. Sharing with France may sound a nice idea, that is until relations break down.

The US way of thinking seems to be "you pay for it" when in Europe it's more about the government helping you to do so. Right or wrong, you can't apply US standards to the UK just like people keep showing me when I try to use UK ideologies on the US.

As a side, we pay the highest fuel duty in Europe. American's complain about paying a $5 for a gallon of fuel, in the UK that wouldn't scratch the surface. It's costing around $10 a gallon in the UK. So far as business goes and the like, I do prefer the American approach. The country is taxing itself to death. Wages get lower, jobs are cut and the government puts tax up. Yep, that makes sense.

 

[JaredJames]

Since it's free, who cares if it's useless?
[that, setting aside of course, that whether they pay it directly in tuition or indirectly via taxes, they are still "paying all that money". It doesn't go away just because it is out of sight.]

The student loan is repaid by the student once they start earning and is taken directly out of their wages by the government.

It isn't funded by tax payers unless you don't get a job once you get a degree. It's more of a loan from the tax payers.

The big problem I have is that with the current system I will leave university with around £25,000 of debt. With the new system, I would leave with £40,000 of debt. That is a big difference and those figures don't include interest.

 

[Gokul43201]

You *may* net over a million more, but then again you likely will not. The last figures I heard quoted were that, on average, a graduate can expect to earn £100,000 more in their lifetime.

How is this possible? The median household income in the UK is over £25,000 (from wiki page). That must make the median individual income at least £15,000. And if that's the national median, I'd imagine the income for college graduates would be even higher - maybe about £20,000/yr. It seems like you'd be able to completely pay off your college debt in less than 5 yrs, and easily go on to earn somewhere near £500,000 by age 50. Where's the error in these numbers? Could it be that the £100,000 figure you quote is lifetime savings?

 

[Kurdt]

There is nothing wrong with socialist policies. Where they fall down is where the system is abused and where those with power and wealth abandon their ideals. During the industrial revolution philanthropy was rife amongst businessmen from humble backgrounds. They built houses, hospitals, schools and libraries for their workers and the communities in which their busnesses were based. Social consciences among the wealthy in recent times seem to have diminished. The welfare system also needs reform because to a lot of people there is such a thing as a free lunch.

I certainly don't agree with the violence and the increase in tuition fees. The government should be supporting higher education.

 

[cristo]

Since it's free, who cares if it's useless?

Evidently it is not "useless", since the UK has some of the best universities in the world.

An argument that the guys saying the kids themselves should pay for school didn't use on me but is nevertheless valid is that if the kid is made to pay for school s/he will place more value on it, take it more seriously, and thus get more from it. But if the parents pay for it, they can at least apply some pressure. If neither pay for it, neither the parents nor the kid have an external reason to care.

Why should there be "an external reason to care"? These are adults at university, not kids in high school.

Could it be that the £100,000 figure you quote is lifetime savings?

Yes, that's what I meant. I think the statistic is that, on average, a person with a degree can expect to earn £100,000 more than one without a degree during their lifetime. If the cost of a degree is rising to near the expected gain, then one can argue there is less point in taking the degree!

 

[JaredJames]

A quick calculation, based on me earning the average salary of £20,000 when I leave with a degree in Aerospace Engineering and compared to my mothers £17,000 earnings with few qualifications, gives me £3000 a year more than her if I worked from 25 to 65. Which is £120,000.

However, assuming I progress and get a few raises here and there / better jobs (in this case I've simply taken this to be a fixed increase of £500 to my wage each year - giving me a maximum salary of £40,000 at retirement which is about average around here), it gives me the potential to just over £500,000 more than my mother (again, assuming she stays on £17,000).

So I'd say that the average salary over all degree courses would allow for earnings of around £300,000 more than someone without a degree.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I'm not surprised people from the US don't 'get' the problem students in the UK have with this becuase of the fundamentally diffrent way it works over here.

How it traditionally worked in the UK was University education was free, you got government grants and company sponsorship to go to university. Everyone in government at the moment got a free University education.

The reasoning was as follows: Those that were smart enough to go to University got higher paid jobs, as such ended up paying higher rate taxes. Overall there was a net gain over a long period of time.

However only the smartest few going to University was seen as 'elitist' so targets were set to get more and more young people into higher education. So much so that people stared doing garbagety, useless degrees that are a total waste of time. As such grants because unfeasible and tution fees were introduced.

My problem with this isn't so much that fees are rising it's that the debt in many cases will never be paid back by the vast majority of people. Many won't even pay back the interest. As a good degree just doesn't gaurantee you a job anymore and student loans are now like a regular low interest loan.

In the US there is far more finanical support in the forms of scholarships and grants, that isn't in place in the UK simply becuase it wasn't needed.


Gokul

If the fees are being raised to some value closer to market rates, I imagine taxes would drop to lower values, as there is no longer a need for them to support education costs to the extent that they previously did (if not immediately, then at least over the medium-to-long-term)?

It seriously doesn't work like that. They have that level of taxation, it's not going to go down 'because there's nothing to spend it on'. They don't work out tax by how much they have to spend. They work out how much they can get away with and then decide what to spend it on. Bastards.



EDIT:
Jaredandjames, I wouldn't forget the fact that you'll be in a higher tax bracket. That's 300k gross not net.

Also don't forget that student loan repayement will increase. However you are unlikely ever to pay back the capital if you were a top up fee student already. I missed the top up fees, my loan is approximately 25k, the studet loans people take £80 each month which means I'm paying off the capital at a rate of £200 per year.

To further the point of saddling university leavers with debt. Assuming the full 9000 tuition + 4000 maintainence loan on a 4 year course, and many people meet their spouse at University. The average couple will have approximately £104k debt before they leave. Up north that's a second mortgage. Which is a hell of a lot of debt to have before you start life.


I'd make useful degrees free and make people pay full whack for bollocks such as media studies and the like.

[/rant]