Understanding Completeness Axiom: Real Numbers & Subsets

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the completeness axiom to the set S = {a + b*sqrt(2) : a, b are rational} and whether this set is complete. Participants explore how to demonstrate that S is not complete, particularly in relation to the existence of certain limits and the properties of bounded sets.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about how to apply the completeness axiom to the set S and questions the validity of their approach regarding supremum and completeness.
  • Another participant clarifies that completeness refers to every Cauchy sequence having a limit, suggesting that finding a Cauchy sequence converging to a limit outside S, such as sqrt(3), would suffice to show incompleteness.
  • A different participant notes that completeness has not yet been defined in terms of sequences in the context of the book, preferring to stick to the axioms of a complete ordered field and properties of sets.
  • One participant proposes that showing a subset of S does not have a least upper bound within the set could demonstrate incompleteness, providing an example involving rational numbers and sqrt(3).
  • A later reply affirms that the proposed method of showing the absence of a least upper bound is valid.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the appropriate methods to demonstrate the incompleteness of the set S. While some suggest using Cauchy sequences, others prefer to rely on the properties of sets and least upper bounds. No consensus is reached on a single method.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of a formal definition of completeness in terms of sequences at this stage in the book, which affects the methods participants are willing to use. Additionally, the discussion reflects varying interpretations of the completeness axiom and its application to specific subsets.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in real analysis, particularly those studying the properties of real numbers and completeness, may find this discussion relevant.

Bleys
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I'm having a little touble understanding application of the completeness axiom to certain subsets of real numbers. In a problem in a book (Fundamentals of Real Analysis by Haggarty), it asks you to show that the set S={a + b*sqrt(2) : a,b are rational} is not complete. As a hint, it tells you to show that sqrt(3) is not in the set. That's fine. What I don't understand is how it follows, from this last fact, that the set is not complete.
I know the Completeness axiom applies to bounded sets, so how can it be applied here. I tried following a similar approach to proving that Q is not complete, but I'm not sure if it's correct. It went something like this:
Take a subset of S such that a + b*sqrt(2) < sqrt(3), a,b rational. Then obviously the supremum (which is sqrt(3)) is not part of S and so it's not complete. Is this valid? It seems really trivial to me...
If anyone could enlighten me, that would be great.
 
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He means "complete" in the sense that every Cauchy sequence has a limit. So all you need to do is find a Cauchy sequence that converges to something outside S, say [tex]\sqrt{3}[/tex].
 
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Well, completeness hasn't been defined using sequences yet in this part of the book, so I'd rather not use methods that aren't required. The only things given are the axioms for a complete ordered field and some properties of sets (Archimedean Postulate and density of Q).
 
is it not enough to show that a subset of the set {a + b*sqrt(2) < sqrt(3) : a,b rational} does not have a least upper bound within the set?
So for example if you let a=0, the subset is {b*sqrt(2) < sqrt(3) : b rational} which is equivalent to {b < sqrt(3/2) : rational}, which does not have a rational least upper bound. Or is that not valid?
 
That's enough, and valid.
 

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