Understanding the Relationship Between Ions and Dipoles: Debunking the Myth

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between ions and dipoles, specifically addressing whether ions can possess dipoles and the implications of this in the context of chemistry education. The scope includes conceptual clarifications and challenges to established views in a classroom setting.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that ions can have dipoles, citing examples like the acetate ion, which has a dipole moment due to its structure.
  • Others suggest that the teacher's perspective may be limited to monoatomic ions, which typically do not have dipole moments due to their spherical symmetry.
  • One participant mentions that even monoatomic ions can exhibit transient dipoles, which are temporary imbalances of charge.
  • There is a discussion about the terminology used, with references to "temporary dipoles" or "induced dipoles" as terms for these transient phenomena.
  • Participants express frustration with the teacher's claims, particularly regarding the dipole moment of NF3 and the classification of ions as compounds.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the teacher's assertion that ions cannot have dipoles, with multiple viewpoints presented regarding the nature of dipoles in both monoatomic and polyatomic ions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the teacher's definitions and the implications for understanding dipoles in chemistry.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of ions and dipoles, as well as the context in which these concepts are taught. The reliance on specific educational materials and the varying levels of familiarity with the concepts among participants may affect the clarity of the discussion.

Stalker23
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Can ions have dipoles?

ive had a really long argument with a teacher who says ions can't have dipoles because ions are not compounds...

can anyone clarify this for me please
 
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Ions can certainly have dipoles, since ions are not restricted to being monoatomic like the chloride anion or the lithium cation.

Consider the acetate ion (see attached figure). The acetate ion consists of a methyl group directly connected to a carboxylate group.

An oxygen atom in the carboxylate group contains an extra electron, which causes the carboxylate group to be negatively charged. Because the extra electron is localized on the carboxylate group, an electric gradient across the molecules is set up; which causes the dipole moment.

Perhaps your teacher, for the sake of the class, wanted to emphasize that the ions you will be dealing with ions which are strictly monoatomic; and because of spherical symmetry, wouldn't have a dipole moment. :smile:
 

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awsome
i think she's just stupid...at one point she said NF3 had no dipole. and i specifically asked her why NO3- wouldn't have one and she gave me that BS reson (ions arent compounds...)
thanks a lot
 
Last edited:
Even monoatomic ions can have transient dipoles.
 
really?

never heard of those...in AP Chemistry in HS
 
Never? I took AP Chemistry last year; transient dipoles are simply temporary imbalances of charge, which can exist among molecules or separate atoms.

Recall this from the "(London) dispersion forces" section in the chapter on intermolecular forces. (though, I don't know what textbook you are using)

...at one point she said NF3 had no dipole. and i specifically asked her why NO3- wouldn't have one and she gave me that BS reson (ions arent compounds...)
thanks a lot

Remind her of that common term, "polyatomic ions" :wink:
 
Last edited:
ha

im using Zumdahl, which my tacher warships like a god.

thanks again
 
Stalker23 said:
really?

never heard of those...in AP Chemistry in HS


maybe you haven't learned about it yet...?

i took that course last year and learned aboot them
 
well if its what i think your talking about, we call them tomporary dipoles or induced dipoles

:-p
 

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