Unraveling the Mystery of Black Holes: The Paradox of Singularity and Infinity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of black holes, specifically addressing the paradox of singularity and the concept of infinity in mathematical models. Participants explore the implications of general relativity (GR) and quantum mechanics (QM) in understanding black holes, as well as the limitations of current theories in describing phenomena at the scale of singularities.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how a finite amount of matter can lead to an infinite density at singularities, suggesting a disconnect between mathematical predictions and physical reality.
  • Another participant posits that the discrepancies in our understanding arise from the inadequacies of current theories, implying that they may be fundamentally flawed.
  • There is mention of the challenges in unifying GR with QM, with one participant noting that efforts to do so have not been successful, particularly in the context of black holes.
  • A clarification is made that the issues with current theories are related to the immense density and small scale of black holes, rather than their total mass or size.
  • Participants discuss the limitations of models at the Planck scale, indicating that the mathematical expressions used to describe singularities often lead to divergences, which signal a breakdown in the approximations used in physics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of mathematical models for black holes, with some suggesting that current theories are inadequate while others emphasize the limitations of our understanding at extreme scales. There is no consensus on the resolution of these issues.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the breakdown of mathematical models at singularities raises questions about the validity of existing theories, particularly in relation to the definitions of density and volume at extreme conditions.

Crazymechanic
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Scientists say that in mathematical terms in singularity all the math breaks down and you get infinity. But how come this be if the black hole formed from a star that had huge but still limited amount of matter/fuel in it, and that limited amount just got highly compressed.
And if there even is a infinite thing in our universe and the universe itself I think shouldn't be infinite.
So my question is why the numbers show us otherwise?
 
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So my question is why the numbers show us otherwise?
Because our theories are wrong. Simple.
 
for black holes they tried to unite GR with QM or something but I guess that didn't worked out too well?
 
Crazymechanic said:
for black holes they tried to unite GR with QM or something but I guess that didn't worked out too well?

Yes, we have yet to develop a quantum theory for gravity. Our knowledge of physics at scales similar to a black hole is severely limited.
 
Drakkith said:
Yes, we have yet to develop a quantum theory for gravity. Our knowledge of physics at scales similar to a black hole is severely limited.

Just to clarify for the OP, its the immense density and small scale that causes Black Holes to expose the problems with our current theories, not the total mass and not the size.
 
Our knowledge of physics at scales similar to a black hole is severely limited.

This means at the scale of singularities, say around the order of Placnk scale, around 10-33 cm our models don't work so well...The 'infinity', described also as a divergence or a mathematical expression not well behaved, of models signals the likely breakdown of our approximations.
 
Crazymechanic said:
Scientists say that in mathematical terms in singularity all the math breaks down and you get infinity. But how come this be if the black hole formed from a star that had huge but still limited amount of matter/fuel in it, and that limited amount just got highly compressed.
And if there even is a infinite thing in our universe and the universe itself I think shouldn't be infinite.
So my question is why the numbers show us otherwise?
The numbers predict an infinite density or zero volume. Density is mass divided by volume.
 

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