Valid Arguments: Sets Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around logical arguments and set theory, specifically focusing on the validity of certain logical forms such as Modus Tollens, Transitivity, and the Converse Fallacy. Participants seek clarification on these concepts and their applications in reasoning and set relations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants present logical arguments and inquire about their correctness, specifically regarding Modus Tollens and Transitivity.
  • There is a discussion about the Converse Fallacy, with participants questioning the implications of the logical forms presented.
  • Clarifications are provided about the subset relation and the distinction between being an element of a set versus being a subset.
  • One participant expresses confusion about the notation used in logical conclusions, specifically questioning why $\therefore p \implies r$ is preferred over $p \therefore r$.
  • Participants discuss the implications of using the symbol $\therefore$ and its role in indicating conclusions in logical arguments.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

While some participants agree on the correctness of the logical forms presented, there remains uncertainty and confusion regarding the notation and implications of certain statements, indicating that the discussion is not fully resolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the logical arguments and set theory concepts, highlighting potential gaps in knowledge and assumptions about notation and definitions.

ertagon2
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View attachment 7799
is this right ?6(1).
p$\implies$q,
$\lnot$q$\therefore\lnot$p,
Modus tollens

6(2).
p$\implies$q,
q$\implies$r,
q$\therefore$r,
Transitivity

6(3).
p$\implies$q,
q$\therefore$p.
Converse fallacy

7. I have no idea what I'm doing please explain.
 

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ertagon2 said:
is this right ?6(1).
p$\implies$q,
$\lnot$q$\therefore\lnot$p,
Modus tollens

6(2).
p$\implies$q,
q$\implies$r,
q$\therefore$r,
Transitivity

I think you mean $\therefore \; p\implies r$, right?

ertagon2 said:
6(3).
p$\implies$q,
q$\therefore$p.
Converse fallacy

This is all correct.

ertagon2 said:
7. I have no idea what I'm doing please explain.

The subset $\subset$ relation works like this: $A\subset B$ if and only if every element of $A$ is an element of $B$. So, for 7.A., look at every element of the set $\{1,2\}$, and see if they are in $A$ (they are). 7.B. is trickier. The relation "is an element of", $\in$, works differently from the $\subset$ relation. Sets can be elements of other sets, or they can be subsets of other sets. Neither implies the other. In this case, because $A=\{1,2,\{1,2\}\}$, and you have that nested $\{1,2\}$ sitting inside, then it follows that $\{1,2\}$ is an element of $A$. For something to be an element of another set, it's got to show up at the highest level, separated from other elements by commas. So, for example, if you define the set $C=\{1,2,\{3,4\}\}$, then the elements of $C$ are $1$, $2$, and $\{3,4\}$. Neither $3$ nor $4$ are elements of $C$. Does this help? Can you see why 7.C. is true and 7.D. is false?
 
Ackbach said:
I think you mean $\therefore \; p\implies r$, right?
This is all correct.
The subset $\subset$ relation works like this: $A\subset B$ if and only if every element of $A$ is an element of $B$. So, for 7.A., look at every element of the set $\{1,2\}$, and see if they are in $A$ (they are). 7.B. is trickier. The relation "is an element of", $\in$, works differently from the $\subset$ relation. Sets can be elements of other sets, or they can be subsets of other sets. Neither implies the other. In this case, because $A=\{1,2,\{1,2\}\}$, and you have that nested $\{1,2\}$ sitting inside, then it follows that $\{1,2\}$ is an element of $A$. For something to be an element of another set, it's got to show up at the highest level, separated from other elements by commas. So, for example, if you define the set $C=\{1,2,\{3,4\}\}$, then the elements of $C$ are $1$, $2$, and $\{3,4\}$. Neither $3$ nor $4$ are elements of $C$. Does this help? Can you see why 7.C. is true and 7.D. is false?

So I did answer everything correctly?
Can you please explain 6.(3)
Why is it $\therefore$p$\implies$r rather than p$\therefore$r <--this is what I meant
 
ertagon2 said:
So I did answer everything correctly?

Yes, I think so.

ertagon2 said:
Can you please explain 6.(3)
Why is it $\therefore$p$\implies$r rather than p$\therefore$r <--this is what I meant

The problem with writing $p\therefore r$ is that it is confusing. Someone looking at that might think you've concluded that $p$ is actually true, whereas it's only ever an assumption in the entire argument. Moreover, the word "therefore" or symbol $\therefore$ is meant to indicate that what follows is the conclusion. It's not usually meant to be used as part of the conclusion, or in the middle of it. Does that help?
 

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