Veracity of Simple Molecular Model

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the accuracy and limitations of a simple molecular model used in thermal physics, specifically one that treats atoms as point masses connected by stiff springs. Participants explore when this model is applicable and when it may break down, particularly in relation to quantum effects and system size.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the model works well for large systems and high temperatures, where quantum effects are negligible.
  • It is suggested that the model is valid as long as the difference between energy levels is small compared to thermal energy, specifically when the probability of a single quantum state being populated is low.
  • One participant questions whether the model is reliable in almost all thermal physics applications, indicating a desire for broader applicability.
  • Another participant agrees that the model is a good description for gases, except in cases involving significant molecular interactions or phenomena like laser cooling.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the model is applicable under certain conditions, particularly in large systems and high temperatures. However, there is some uncertainty regarding its limitations and the specific scenarios where it may break down.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on system size, temperature, and the significance of quantum effects, which remain unresolved in the discussion.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in thermal physics, statistical mechanics, and the application of molecular models in physics may find this discussion relevant.

Bashyboy
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Hello Everyone,

I understand that sometimes in physics we make a model of some physical system purely for theoretical convenience, as it allows us to calculate certain properties of the system very easily; although, sometimes these models aren't actually what is going on, but it doesn't matter, so long as the model accurately predicts the effects.

In the given link http://www.phy.duke.edu/~lee/P53/therm2.pdf , they suppose such a model. Here is what they say:

"To be able to count the degrees of freedom we must make a model of the molecule. We
will treat the atoms as point masses, and imagine that the bonds between atoms are like
stiff springs connecting these masses."

How accurate is this model, and when does it begin to break down?
 
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Bashyboy said:
In the given link http://www.phy.duke.edu/~lee/P53/therm2.pdf , they suppose such a model. Here is what they say:

"To be able to count the degrees of freedom we must make a model of the molecule. We
will treat the atoms as point masses, and imagine that the bonds between atoms are like
stiff springs connecting these masses."

How accurate is this model, and when does it begin to break down?
It works pretty well so long as quantum effects are not important. This most often means big systems (##\sim N_\mathrm{A}##) and high temperatures. Basically, you want the difference between consecutive energy levels to be small compared to ##k_\mathrm{B} T##, and that the probability of a single quantum state to be populated to be ##\ll 1##.

If you want to know more, you should look into statistical physics. An introductory course will cover quantum statistics and the classical limit.
 
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So, would it be safe to say, that this model will probably work in almost all cases in which someone uses thermal physics?

I actually just began such a course. But I believe we won't be covering those topics for some time.
 
Bashyboy said:
So, would it be safe to say, that this model will probably work in almost all cases in which someone uses thermal physics?
Yes. For a gas, so long as you don't start doing things like laser cooling, that model is a pretty good description. Deviations from the ideal gas law due to interactions between molecules will kick in much before that model of point masses and springs is no longer valid.
 
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