News Was British Involvement in the Iraq War Driven by Blair’s Sycophancy?

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The discussion centers on the assertion that British involvement in the Iraq War was largely driven by Tony Blair's sycophantic alignment with Washington, leading to tragic consequences for British soldiers. Critics argue that the war was based on flawed intelligence regarding weapons of mass destruction (WMD), which many believe were fabricated to justify military action. The conversation highlights the phenomenon of groupthink among political leaders, where a desire for consensus led to a disregard for dissenting views and realistic assessments of the situation. Participants also reflect on the broader implications of the war, suggesting it hindered the fight against terrorism and failed to establish a stable democracy in Iraq. Ultimately, the discourse critiques the motivations behind the war and the failures of leadership in addressing the truth.
  • #51
cristo said:
How are you qualified to comment on whether or not members of governments "believed" in the WMD claim? The way I heard it was that MI6 (or the JIC) presented "the 45 minute claim" to the prime minister, who took it as serious. I do not see that the prime minister would lie to the public, and completely make up such an intelligence source, so it seems that the source was inaccurate. Conjecture as to whether or not MPs "believed" this source is impossible without having read the entire document. Regardless, your security services are there for a reason, and you can't simply ignore what they're telling you, or stating that you know better.

First of all I said that I'm iffy on if they actually believed that I had high doubts that they had concrete evidence suggesting beyond any doubt that Iraq had WMD. Why do I say this?

SENATE On Postwar Intelligence:

[..]this Administration owed it to the American people to give them a 100 percent accurate picture of the threat we faced. Unfortunately, our Committee has concluded that the Administration made significant claims that were not supported by the intelligence,” Rockefeller said. “In making the case for war, the Administration repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when in reality it was unsubstantiated, contradicted, or even non-existent. As a result, the American people were led to believe that the threat from Iraq was much greater than actually existed.
(bolding mine)
The Committee’s report cites several conclusions in which the Administration’s public statements were NOT supported by the intelligence. They include:

Ø Statements and implications by the President and Secretary of State suggesting that Iraq and al-Qa’ida had a partnership, or that Iraq had provided al-Qa’ida with weapons training, were not substantiated by the intelligence.

Ø Statements by the President and the Vice President indicating that Saddam Hussein was prepared to give weapons of mass destruction to terrorist groups for attacks against the United States were contradicted by available intelligence information.

Ø Statements by President Bush and Vice President Cheney regarding the postwar situation in Iraq, in terms of the political, security, and economic, did not reflect the concerns and uncertainties expressed in the intelligence products.

Ø Statements by the President and Vice President prior to the October 2002 National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq’s chemical weapons production capability and activities did not reflect the intelligence community’s uncertainties as to whether such production was ongoing.

Ø The Secretary of Defense’s statement that the Iraqi government operated underground WMD facilities that were not vulnerable to conventional airstrikes because they were underground and deeply buried was not substantiated by available intelligence information.

Ø The Intelligence Community did not confirm that Muhammad Atta met an Iraqi intelligence officer in Prague in 2001 as the Vice President repeatedly claimed.
http://intelligence.senate.gov/press/record.cfm?id=298775

Hans Blix Report to the UN:
Turning to biological and chemical weapons, Mr. Blix said there was a significant Iraqi effort under way to clarify a major source of uncertainty as to the quantities of those arms, which were unilaterally destroyed in 1991. As part of that effort, a disposal site was being now re-excavated, unearthing bombs and fragments, which could allow the determination of the number of bombs destroyed at that site.
(bolding mine)
Mr. Blix emphasized that no evidence had so far been found of weapons of mass destruction being moved around by truck, of mobile production units for biological weapons or of underground facilities for chemical or biological production or storage
(bolding mine)
http://www.un.org/apps/news/storyAr.asp?NewsID=6383&Cr=iraq&Cr1=inspect


Here is an article on Americas "Eye-Witness" of WMD production:
And, it turned out, the CIA not only never spoke with him, it never even saw transcripts of the German interviews, only the Germans' analysis of the interviews.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/10/10/iraq.curveball/index.html

As for British Intelligence look into the 'Butler Review'...
http://www.webarchive.org.uk/wayback/archive/20060105191702/http://www.butlerreview.org.uk/report/report.pdf
(It's quite a large document 216 pages so I wouldn't expect you to go through it all)

[sarcasm]There are plenty more reports of 'intelligence' showing that Iraq had WMDs [/sarcasm]

If you'd like them just let me know.

The main reason for the invasion of Iraq came from the Blix report to the UN, America didn't like the pace that was occurring and the UN did not agree with using force to get the program underway. In MY opinion it looks more like America actually just wanted an excuse to go in and topple Hussein.

They have a clear motive (as outlined from when Clinton was president and then it was brought to the table as an 'urgent' issue when Bush took power.) All to do with only toppling the regime, not WMD. Obviously the UN would not agree to using force to accelerate the programs occurring in Iraq.
 
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  • #52
BobG said:
How can you say that and then list 17 UN resolutions, including UN Resolution 678 which authorized the invasion in Gulf War I?

You have a point there, I could be wrong. But the UN does not strike me much as a useful organization at all. Just my opinion.
 
  • #53
Sorry! said:
First of all I said that I'm iffy on if they actually believed that I had high doubts that they had concrete evidence suggesting beyond any doubt that Iraq had WMD.

You know, you should really start punctuating your sentences if you continue writing in this ambiguous manner.

Anyway, you seem to focus on the evidence put to governments by the weapons inspectors, but my point was that intelligence stated otherwise. Just because UN weapons detectors did not find weapons does not mean that the said weapons did not exist.

Now, I'm just playing devil's advocate really, since this point (whether or not the intelligence existed in the first place) is utterly impossible to prove -- the evidence will likely be locked deep in filing cabinets somewhere. But, to say that intelligence was fabricated solely to go to war, is a pretty wild accusation. Oh, and as for your CNN eye witness [sic], you shouldn't believe everything you read in the media!
 
  • #54
cristo said:
You know, you should really start punctuating your sentences if you continue writing in this ambiguous manner.
I was typing it out quickly because I wanted to just post all those sources.
Anyway, you seem to focus on the evidence put to governments by the weapons inspectors, but my point was that intelligence stated otherwise. Just because UN weapons detectors did not find weapons does not mean that the said weapons did not exist.
Wrong one piece of intelligence I posted was about Hans. I guess you could say that's me focusing mostly on the UN weapons inspectors... sure.
Now, I'm just playing devil's advocate really, since this point (whether or not the intelligence existed in the first place) is utterly impossible to prove -- the evidence will likely be locked deep in filing cabinets somewhere.
Wrong, I posted the Butler Review Report. There is also a report from America's commitee but apparently the website is no longer operating. I'll look for it too. Britains report is more about the intelligence available to Britain. America's report include government policy made on the intelligence.
But, to say that intelligence was fabricated solely to go to war, is a pretty wild accusation.
If you read the Senate commitee report on the Postwar intelligence they say just that. That "intelligence [was presented by government] as fact when in reality it was unsubstantiated, contradicted, or even non-existent"

Oh, and as for your CNN eye witness [sic], you shouldn't believe everything you read in the media
You never heard of 'Curveball?' This isn't CNNs 'eye-witness' this is one of AMERICAs eye-witnesses used to conclude Iraq had WMD. America never even interviewed this guy or even read through the transcripts of his interview. Funny... Again if you do not believe me then you could always go and lookup the reports from the American commitees which do speak about these 'eye-witnesses' or go to UN speaches made about these 'eye-witnesses'.
 
  • #55
Sorry! said:
Wrong one piece of intelligence I posted was about Hans. I guess you could say that's me focusing mostly on the UN weapons inspectors... sure.

Chill out with the unnecessary sarcasm! Regardless, my point still stands.

Wrong, I posted the Butler Review Report.

I'm still not certain that all intelligence that was available will go into a report by a commons committee, but then that's just my opinion. Still, I don't recall the Butler report saying that the 45 minute claim (for example) was entirely fabricated.

If you read the Senate commitee report on the Postwar intelligence they say just that. That "intelligence [was presented by government] as fact when in reality it was unsubstantiated, contradicted, or even non-existent"

Well, fortunately, I wasn't talking about the US intelligence.

You never heard of 'Curveball?' This isn't CNNs 'eye-witness' this is one of AMERICAs eye-witnesses used to conclude Iraq had WMD.

I don't doubt that such an "eye-witness" existed, but whether the guy interviewed in that article is the same eye-witness is, at least to me, questionable.
 
  • #56
Who cares whether or not they had WMDs or not? The fact that Iraq was a hostile country that would not allow weapons inspectors into freely check if they WMDs was enough justification in itself, as far as I am concerned.
 
  • #57
kev said:
Who cares whether or not they had WMDs or not? The fact that Iraq was a hostile country that would not allow weapons inspectors into freely check if they WMDs was enough justification in itself, as far as I am concerned.
Who gets to decide which country is "hostile" and won't allow inspectors to freely access all their facilities? Would you allow ANY country to assail the US as "hostile" and to attack us if we didn't let them inspect our weapons programs? I think not.

Lets inject some common sense and some respect for national sovereignty into this thread, lest it prove less productive than the "relationships" pap.
 
  • #58
turbo-1 said:
Who gets to decide which country is "hostile" and won't allow inspectors to freely access all their facilities? Would you allow ANY country to assail the US as "hostile" and to attack us if we didn't let them inspect our weapons programs? I think not.

Lets inject some common sense and some respect for national sovereignty into this thread, lest it prove less productive than the "relationships" pap.

In 1991 Iraq under the leadership of Saddam invaded Kuwait without provocation. I think that classifies Iraq as "hostile" and in 2003 Iraq was still under the leadership of Saddam, so nothing much had changed.
As for who gets to decide, I think the expression "might is right" comes to mind and whether you like it or not it is a fact of life. When we question the legitimacy or legality of the Iraq war, we immediately imply that there is such a thing as a world policeforce or court that gets to decide these things. I seem to recall that it was the United Nations that decided to send in the weapons inspectors, so I guess it is the UN that gets to decide. Let's follow your line of reasoning. We only send weapons inspectors into countries that are agreable to being inspected. That leaves only the genuinely aggressive countries with something to hide that do not get inspected. Maybe the UN should never have decided to send weapons inspectors in, but once they made that decision, they have to enforce it or the whole exercise becomes pointless. The gist of this thread is whether or not Iraq had WMDs. Do you not see the hypocracy right there. Many countries including the UK, USA and Israel have WMDs. What gives them the right to say any other country should not also have WMDs? If we decide that all countries do not have an automatic right to have WMDs, then we have to enforce that (and that includes enforcing inspection for WMDs) or we just give up and let anyone have any weapons they like and wait for them to start invading before responding. Is that your position?
 
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  • #59
kev said:
In 1991 Iraq under the leadership of Saddam invaded Kuwait without provocation. I think that classifies Iraq as "hostile" and in 2003 Iraq was still under the leadership of Saddam, so nothing much had changed.
As for who gets to decide, I think the expression "might is right" comes to mind and whether you like it or not it is a fact of life. When we question the legitimacy or legality of the Iraq war, we immediately imply that there is such a thing as a world policeforce or court that gets to decide these things. I seem to recall that it was the United Nations that decided to send in the weapons inspectors, so I guess it is the UN that gets to decide. Let's follow your line of reasoning. We only send weapons inspectors into countries that are agreable to being inspected. That leaves only the genuinely aggressive countries with something to hide that do not get inspected. Maybe the UN should never have decided to send weapons inspectors in, but once they made that decision, they have to enforce it or the whole exercise becomes pointless. The gist of this thread is whether or not Iraq had WMDs. Do you not see the hypocracy right there. Many countries including the UK, USA and Israel have WMDs. What gives them the right to say any other country should not also have WMDs? If we decide that all countries do not have an automatic right to have WMDs, then we have to enforce that (and that includes enforcing inspection for WMDs) or we just give up and let anyone have any weapons they like and wait for them to start invading before responding. Is that your position?

First of all weapons inspectors were in Iraq and were doing their jobs. WMD were destroyed and Iraq was in the process of giving evidence of such. This was all reported to the UN yet it was happening and quite a slow pace. You are right there is no 'world policeforce' I wonder why America feels inclined to pretend it's that police force however by invading this country. Yes it is hypocrisy to not allow these other countries to build WMD, but we should still try to sway them from doing it. A reason that they were persuasive about Iraq to the public was by saying they were going to sell them to terrorist organization which would in turn most probably be used against the American people.
 
  • #61
mheslep said:

The only 'major' problem I saw from any of those posts was the fact that Iraq had been following UN Resolutions too slowly. My comment you quoted was specifically towards a 'world police force'. It wasn't a 'why did America attack' but a 'why does America feel the need to police the world' What makes it feel that that should be it's job? The only answer I can think of has to do with it's foreign policy on Iraq. Which has been outlined.

Anyway if you think that those reasons were legitimate then I suggest you read through some of the reports I posted earlier...
 
  • #62
Sorry! said:
First of all weapons inspectors were in Iraq and were doing their jobs...

I do not think that is entirely true. Iraq officials were hindering the weapons inspectors by limiting where they could go and delaying them long enough to move equipment before the inspectors arrived.

Imagine police had reason to believe you were a terrorist and came to your home to check for weapons and explosives and you said sure, you can look in those rooms but not in that room and you will have to come back next week to look in this other room, (after I have cleared it out). Do you think the police will (a) go away peacefully respecting your conditions or (b) get a SWAT team in and break down the doors?
 
  • #63
kev said:
I do not think that is entirely true. Iraq officials were hindering the weapons inspectors by limiting where they could go and delaying them long enough to move equipment before the inspectors arrived.

Imagine police had reason to believe you were a terrorist and came to your home to check for weapons and explosives and you said sure, you can look in those rooms but not in that room and you will have to come back next week to look in this other room, (after I have cleared it out). Do you think the police will (a) go away peacefully respecting your conditions or (b) get a SWAT team in and break down the doors?

The inspectors did not go away the continued their job, UN Sanctions continued, and the disarment Resolutions were being completed. Do your research prior to talking please. If they were 'moving equipment' then
a. how didn't the inspectors finally catch on.
and
b. where is this 'equipment' (whatever that means anyways) located now.
and
c. why has the majority of postwar intelligence regarding WMD been dismissed from both America AND Britain? If Iraq was infact doing what you claim then America was correct and so was their 'eye-witness' named 'curveball'.
 
  • #64
Sorry! said:
First of all weapons inspectors were in Iraq and were doing their jobs. WMD were destroyed and Iraq was in the process of giving evidence of such. This was all reported to the UN yet it was happening and quite a slow pace. You are right there is no 'world policeforce' I wonder why America feels inclined to pretend it's that police force however by invading this country. Yes it is hypocrisy to not allow these other countries to build WMD, but we should still try to sway them from doing it. A reason that they were persuasive about Iraq to the public was by saying they were going to sell them to terrorist organization which would in turn most probably be used against the American people.

mheslep said:

Your defense for the US acting as the world's police force (instead of the UN) is UN Resolutions?

I'm not sure what your point is.

Edit: Actually, I probably shouldn't assume anything, since I have no idea what you're getting at. You might be suggesting that the US is the world's policeman, but you didn't provide a reason why we should be.
 
  • #65
BobG said:
Your defense for the US acting as the world's police force (instead of the UN) is UN Resolutions?

I'm not sure what your point is.

Edit: Actually, I probably shouldn't assume anything, since I have no idea what you're getting at. You might be suggesting that the US is the world's policeman, but you didn't provide a reason why we should be.
I omitted 'worlds police force', that's hyperbole. The US is involved in hostile military actions in Afghanistan along with many other countries, and to a lesser and declining degree in Iraq. The couple pages of UN resolutions on Iraq are the legal justifications for Iraq alone. Iraq/Afghanistan <> The World.
 
  • #66
mheslep said:
I omitted 'worlds police force', that's hyperbole. The US is involved in hostile military actions in Afghanistan along with many other countries, and to a lesser and declining degree in Iraq. The couple pages of UN resolutions on Iraq are the legal justifications for Iraq alone. Iraq/Afghanistan <> The World.

Yet, when the US presented a draft resolution to the UN in March 2003, the UN rejected it, saying invasion wasn't the proper response to Iraq's violations.

Iraq had a long history of violations and the UN had a long history of punishing Iraqi violations. The punishments usually consisted of delaying the transition to the next phase of the Food for Oil program, or some other minor punishment. Likewise, the consequences for non-compliance spelled out in UN Resolution 1441 consisted of convening and creating a new resolution to deal with Iraq's non-compliance. Considering that Iraq's violations consisted of foot dragging, obstruction, and general malingering when it came to cooperation, one could assume the UN would have imposed an additional minor punishment.

After all, the possible range of violations: open defiance and full scale operation of a chemical weapons program ranging all the way to foot dragging and malingering.

Possible ranges of punishments: full scale invasion ranging all the way to prolonged sanctions and delaying benefits of reduced sanctions.

With the US/UK calling for invasion and the rest of the Security Council calling for a less severe punishment; the result was no resolution at all.

I just don't see how that list provides a legal or moral justification for an invasion. To say it provides a legal justification requires some major cherry picking. You have to ignore UN responses that didn't support the US, plus ignore any punishment (albeit weak) the UN did impose on Iraq for violations. To say it provides a moral justification is to say that any violation deserves the most serious punishment that could be imposed. That didn't impress much of the world when Iraq accused Kuwait of stealing Iraqi oil via slant drilling back in '90 and it didn't impress much of the world when the US accused Iraq of violating UN Resolutions in 2003.

A more intellectually honest argument is that the long list of resolutions and minor punishments proved the UN would never give the US what we wanted, so why bother with them? But that requires justifications completely independent of UN Resolutions. It would also more accurately reflect the Bush Administration's opinion about the UN, as evidenced by appointing John Bolton as UN Ambassador.

Bolton's opinion of the UN said:
"There is no such thing as the United Nations. There is only the international community, which can only be led by the only remaining superpower, which is the United States." ... "The Secretariat Building in New York has 38 stories. If you lost ten stories today, it wouldn't make a bit of difference."
 
  • #67
BobG said:
[...]
I just don't see how that list provides a legal or moral justification for an invasion. To say it provides a legal justification requires some major cherry picking. You have to ignore UN responses that didn't support the US, plus ignore any punishment (albeit weak) the UN did impose on Iraq for violations.
This blends two very different things: legal/moral justification for the war, and international agreement that war is the proper action to take. The cease fire violations and corresponding UN resolutions by themselves legally justified military action, as I understand it, no cherry picking required. Those violations put Iraq in a different category from other bad actors. Many of the other UN resolutions, pass or fail, were about obtaining further international consensus as to what to about Iraq. That's a good thing if it can be done, maybe the prudent thing, but it is not necessary to justify military action.
 
  • #68
mheslep said:
This blends two very different things: legal/moral justification for the war, and international agreement that war is the proper action to take. The cease fire violations and corresponding UN resolutions by themselves legally justified military action, as I understand it, no cherry picking required. Those violations put Iraq in a different category from other bad actors. Many of the other UN resolutions, pass or fail, were about obtaining further international consensus as to what to about Iraq. That's a good thing if it can be done, maybe the prudent thing, but it is not necessary to justify military action.

You are using UN Resolutions which are basically just international agreements to justify the legality of invading Iraq anyways... In my opinion none of those UN Resolutions matter to America neither did what the UN had to say... well maybe they would have cared if the UN agreed to take military action against Iraq.

Anyways didn't America invade Iraq without the proper voting procedures? It needed 9 votes right? It only had 4 known votes at the time. America breaking UN regulations? Should I call up the coalition forces to bomb Washington and kill thousands of American citizens.
I'm pretty sure even Kofi Annan himself stated that the invasion by UN charter was illegal... Is this just a one way street? We must enforce resolutions on Iraq through military action but not uphold UN views when it is against America?

If people just admit that America solely invaded Iraq to topple the Hussein regime, and understand that the evidence supporting WMD was not there then I'll be completely understanding and agree. However constant excuse making for the justification of the invasion is rediculous. None of them really 'stand up'. Even Bush admitted that the postwar intelligence and policy surrounding it on Iraq was the biggest downfall of his time as president.

All this being said it doesn't mean that I don't think America going to war against Iraq was bad, just the excuses made for it are. I believe that a country can go to war with any country it pleases. If America wanted to attempt to take over Cuba, go for it. That's the entire purpose of war... it's a political tool to enforce your will onto other states. America uses WAR perfectly IMO. However when the other countries start fighting back because you constantly bully them for no reason do not cry for help.
 
  • #69
Sorry! said:
You are right there is no 'world policeforce' I wonder why America feels inclined to pretend it's that police force however by invading this country.

I would disagree on this bit about there not being any "world police force." There is no "official" world police force perhaps that is given such a name, but I would not want to see the state of the world if the United States was not present.

Yes it is hypocrisy to not allow these other countries to build WMD, but we should still try to sway them from doing it. A reason that they were persuasive about Iraq to the public was by saying they were going to sell them to terrorist organization which would in turn most probably be used against the American people.

Why should we allow ruthless dictatorships that oppress human rights and could cause serious harm to us the right to develop WMD?

That's like saying that if law-abiding citizens are allowed to own guns, then we should also allow the rapists, murderers, and so forth to own guns.

The only nations that you allow to develop WMD (that is, provided you can do anything about it) are the ones that are civilized and do not oppress human rights, and ruthlessly oppress their people, and could also be a threat to the Western world.

Nations like Iran, that may well be hellbent on nuking Israel and trying to create a second Holocaust, or North Korea, which for sixty years has been building up for the re-unification with South Korea and wants nukes as a deterrant so that when it decides firebomb the daylights out of South Korea and effectively slaughters all the American soldiers stationed there, along with killing a lot of South Koreans by bombing Seoul to smithereens, and the only thing the United States can do is nuke them back to do anything about it (as conventional bombing likely won't work in such an instance, plus NK is a wholly different animal from a nation like Iraq to invade or bomb), the NKs can say, "You bomb us, and we're launching at one of your major cities" (and if the NKs get a nuke that they can launch intercontinentally, this day will come, as this is what NK has been preparing for, for decades, unless they are stopped somehow), you do not allow such nations to develop WMDs out of some notion of "fairness."

That's like if the Nazis were to re-emergence to power in Germany at some future point, you wouldn't allow them to develop WMDs.

Sorry! said:
My comment you quoted was specifically towards a 'world police force'. It wasn't a 'why did America attack' but a 'why does America feel the need to police the world' What makes it feel that that should be it's job?

America only feels it needs to "police" the world in the sense that:

1) It is necessary for the security of the Western world, and

2) There is no one else on the planet that can, or will, do it. You think the EU could front a 200,000 man force, move it halfway around the world, and then sustain continued operations for year after year?

Europe (EU), for one, couldn't do this, as they lack the ability. Most of the Euro nations put less than 2% of the NATO-mandated minimum of 2% of GDP into their militaries, and what they do spend is usually on the salaries and benefits of the soldiers, as opposed to on training and equipment.

Most also do not have the ability to ramp up their defense spending. They have invested too much of their national economies into their social welfare states (which themselves are expensive enough as it is, and deeply in debt for different nations), plus their peoples, having been cocooned and protected for so many years by the United States and the UK, do not have the will or spirit for any such actions. There have been attempts to create European Rapid-Reaction Forces, but they have all went nowhere.

The EU peoples will not sacrifice their entitlement social welfare states in order to pour more funding into defense (especially when they have a big nation like the U.S. that handle the defense for them).

As it stands, the only other nation aside from the United States that still has a warrior culture and the ability to actually project force, is the United Kingdom, and even for them, right now, they'd have a hard time pulling off something like the Falklands again.

Sure, multiple nations aid in the efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they are the loyal sidekicks to the U.S. None of them could really go at such an effort by themselves.

The only nation with the capability to defend the Western world, whether that be standing up to the Soviet Union to stop them from taking over all of Europe, or sending large numbers of troops into a place like Afghanistan to prevent the area from becoming the equivalent to terrorists of what a raw steak sitting at room temperature is to E. Coli, and also to prevent Pakistan from possibly falling to radical Islamists (which would be an utter catastrophe), to invading a nation like Iraq if the need should ever arise, is the United States.

The U.S. tends to be damned if it does, and damned if it doesn't. If the U.S. was to truly become isolationist and stop caring about the rest of the world's affairs and possible dangers, the EU would be crapping bricks. On the other hand, when the U.S. decides to act to handle such issues around the world, then it gets accused of imperialism, sticking its nose where it shouldn't, and so forth.

The U.S., as President Obama said in his Nobel Peace Prize speech, has played a key role in underwriting global security for the past sixty years.
 
  • #70
Sorry! said:
I believe that a country can go to war with any country it pleases.

Why?

If America wanted to attempt to take over Cuba, go for it. That's the entire purpose of war... it's a political tool to enforce your will onto other states.

No it isn't. That is one purpose of war. War is also sometimes just a necessary evil to protect the free world.

America uses WAR perfectly IMO. However when the other countries start fighting back because you constantly bully them for no reason do not cry for help.

What nations does America constantly "bully?"
 
  • #71
Nebula815 said:
That's like if the Nazis were to re-emergence to power in Germany at some future point, you wouldn't allow them to develop WMDs.

Time to lock the thread. Way to go Nebula. I do not see how anything you posted in this post has to do with anything related to the OP. My original post was specifically about the situation in Iraq, you went off tangent, it it was intended to be seen specifically about Iraq.
 
  • #72
Nebula815 said:
Why?
Because they can; are you going to personally go out there and stop them. You can try however hard you want, if a country wants to go to war, war it will go to.

No it isn't. That is one purpose of war. War is also sometimes just a necessary evil to protect the free world.
'Necessary evil to protect the freewill' 'imposing it's will on other states' Interesting. Do you actually understand what I said; you could have just asked for clarification.
What nations does America constantly "bully?"

Many nations view America as a bully towards the weaker, smaller, developing nations. The Americans of course do it in the name of democracy but do a lot of those people want to have democracy or do they just want to live in peace however it comes in their part of the world.
 
  • #73
Sorry! said:
Time to lock the thread. Way to go Nebula. I do not see how anything you posted in this post has to do with anything related to the OP. My original post was specifically about the situation in Iraq, you went off tangent, it it was intended to be seen specifically about Iraq.

I addressed specific things you wrote that I disagreed with. If you don't want people to respond to things you write, then please do not write them.
 
  • #74
Nebula815 said:
I addressed specific things you wrote that I disagreed with. If you don't want people to respond to things you write, then please do not write them.

The point is to keep the thread on TOPIC not to go off and start talking about Nazi's and gun owners and allowing such and such to develop WMDs and social welfare states and the might of the American military and the suckiness of the rest of the world military. It has absolutely nothing with what is going on. You can PM or you can start a new thread. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me, it has to do with the rules of the forums.
 
  • #75
mheslep said:
This blends two very different things: legal/moral justification for the war, and international agreement that war is the proper action to take. The cease fire violations and corresponding UN resolutions by themselves legally justified military action, as I understand it, no cherry picking required. Those violations put Iraq in a different category from other bad actors. Many of the other UN resolutions, pass or fail, were about obtaining further international consensus as to what to about Iraq. That's a good thing if it can be done, maybe the prudent thing, but it is not necessary to justify military action.


First off, only the ones invoking Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter justify any action by UN members - either under Article 41 (which are your sanctions) or Article 42 (which is military force).

Some of the resolutions authorize sanctions.

One (UN Resolution 678) authorizes military force.

Resolutions not invoking Chapter VII are about obtaining further international consensus. (Although there are those that would remind you that NO UN RESOLUTION IS UNENFORCEABLE.)

In situations where you can't find enough consensus to pass any sort of resolution, then I guess you have neither. Although there is an alternative route to action that was used for the Korean War when the Soviet Union vetoed action against North Korea: General Assembly Resolution 377 to be used when the Security Council could not reach unanimity on an issue. That was the only time the General Assembly authorized UN action and I'm not sure that provision is still legal (or if it were legal, per the UN Charter, even then).
 
  • #76
Sorry! said:
Because they can; are you going to personally go out there and stop them. You can try however hard you want, if a country wants to go to war, war it will go to.

Well sure a country "can" go to war, I thought you meant that if a country just decides one day, "Hey, let's go to war with X nation," that they have every moral right to do so.

'Necessary evil to protect the freewill' 'imposing it's will on other states' Interesting. Do you actually understand what I said; you could have just asked for clarification.

You wrote that the purpose of war is a tool to impose your will onto other states. You think when France went against Nazi Germany in World War II, it was seeking to impose its own will on Germany? Imposing will is one purpose war can be used for.

Many nations view America as a bully towards the weaker, smaller, developing nations.

Many nations view America as the source of all the world's problems, doesn't make it so. I do not know of any "weak, small, developing nations" that the U.S. actively bullies. You want a bully, look to Russia and Eastern Europe.

The Americans of course do it in the name of democracy but do a lot of those people want to have democracy or do they just want to live in peace however it comes in their part of the world.

What peaceful, happy nations does America "bully" solely in the "name of democracy?"
 
  • #77
Sorry! said:
The point is to keep the thread on TOPIC not to go off and start talking about Nazi's and gun owners and allowing such and such to develop WMDs and social welfare states and the might of the American military and the suckiness of the rest of the world military. It has absolutely nothing with what is going on. You can PM or you can start a new thread. It has nothing to do with you disagreeing with me, it has to do with the rules of the forums.

I understand your point, but I was responding to your words. And threads occasionally get sidelined.

The cap & trade thread gave birth to a stimulus spending thread, and the stimulus spending thread was moving in the direction of giving birth to a healthcare thread:smile:
 
  • #78
Sorry! said:
Anyways didn't America invade Iraq without the proper voting procedures? It needed 9 votes right? It only had 4 known votes at the time. America breaking UN regulations? Should I call up the coalition forces to bomb Washington and kill thousands of American citizens.
This misses the point above. The US didn't need any more votes to invade Iraq. SC resolutions are the only thing that matter in that regard, not 'UN regulations' or parking violations.

Sorry! said:
I'm pretty sure even Kofi Annan himself stated that the invasion by UN charter was illegal...
So? Annan was guy with a beard, a microphone, NY office space courtesy of the US, and family members raking in oil for food money. What he said or didn't say means zip in this case.

Sorry! said:
Is this just a one way street? We must enforce resolutions on Iraq through military action but not uphold UN views when it is against America?
The US chose military action, the UN doesn't obligate the US do anything.
 
  • #79
Nebula815 said:
America only feels it needs to "police" the world in the sense that:

1) It is necessary for the security of the Western world, and(snip)
This thread is about the legitimacy of the Iraq War. Iraq did not attack the US, had no part in 9/11, and apart from foot-dragging on issues that they claimed related to their sovereignty, they weren't much of a threat to anybody. Bush and Cheney and their handlers used a host of false "reasons" to justify their war. OK, Saddam is gone - one less creep in the world. However, what do we have to show for that little improvement? An unstable region that will descend into civil war as soon as the US pulls out. A region (it probably cannot survive as a single country) in which theocratic regimes will destroy the rights of women and minority groups. A region in which the wealthiest and most capable (professionals, often) people fled in order to save their families and themselves from war and inter-sect terrorism. A region which will likely see no Christian population re-established, except perhaps in some areas controlled by the Kurds, who are a bit more tolerant than the Sunnis and Shiia. For this we have paid out countless hundreds of billions of dollars, stretched our military 'way too thin, lost too many American lives... Doesn't sound like much of a deal.

It's high time that we put aside our "policeman's" badge, and took care of our own security. The Iraq war was entirely unnecessary and ill-advised and the cost to our country is ruinous.
 
  • #80
turbo-1 said:
This thread is about the legitimacy of the Iraq War. Iraq did not attack the US, had no part in 9/11, and apart from foot-dragging on issues that they claimed related to their sovereignty, they weren't much of a threat to anybody. Bush and Cheney and their handlers used a host of false "reasons" to justify their war. OK, Saddam is gone - one less creep in the world. However, what do we have to show for that little improvement? An unstable region that will descend into civil war as soon as the US pulls out.

I never said that invading Iraq was a proper course of action in the U.S.'s policing of the world, or I didn't mean to give that impression if that is what you got. When I said the U.S. is the world's policeman, I didn't mean that justifies the Iraq War unto itself.

Not sure I agree the area will necessarily descend into civil war when the U.S. pulls out. It is a fragile, but functioning democracy, and if allowed to develop enough, could become a strong democratic ally in the region.

A region (it probably cannot survive as a single country) in which theocratic regimes will destroy the rights of women and minority groups. A region in which the wealthiest and most capable (professionals, often) people fled in order to save their families and themselves from war and inter-sect terrorism. A region which will likely see no Christian population re-established, except perhaps in areas controlled by the Kurds, who are a bit more tolerant than the Sunnis and Shiia. For this we have paid out countless hundreds of billions of dollars, stretched our military 'way too thin, lost too many American lives... Doesn't sound like much of a deal.

You could be right, or I could be right, time will tell. I think it would be bad to just leave the region and let it break down though. If political parties can be established that are not each specific to one religion each, this could be beneficial too.

It's high time that we put aside our "policeman's" badge, and took care of our own security.

Bush believed he was taking care of our security with Iraq. However, even if one says Iraq was wrong, this does not mean the U.S. is no longer the world's policeman. For example, Afghanistan, which for years now the Democrats have said was the central front in the War on Terror, the war that Bush should have concentrated on, and diverted resources waway from in order to fight the (in their opinion) wrong and unnecessary war in Iraq.

If Afghanistan is allowed to descend into chaos, it will likely lead to future 9/11s and could lead to Pakistan falling to radical Islamists, a very bad thing.

The Iraq war was entirely unnecessary and ill-advised and the cost to our country is ruinous.

Not ruinious, but costly. I would say things like this healthcare bill will be ruinous, but that's a separate topic.
 
  • #81
Nebula815 said:
America only feels it needs to "police" the world in the sense that:

1) It is necessary for the security of the Western world, and

2) There is no one else on the planet that can, or will, do it. You think the EU could front a 200,000 man force, move it halfway around the world, and then sustain continued operations for year after year?

Europe (EU), for one, couldn't do this, as they lack the ability. Most of the Euro nations put less than 2% of the NATO-mandated minimum of 2% of GDP into their militaries, and what they do spend is usually on the salaries and benefits of the soldiers, as opposed to on training and equipment.

Where have you been since the break up of the Soviet Union? With a decade of Bush 41 and Clinton reaping the "peace dividend", a war like Iraq is pretty much unsustainable for more than 6 months. (Using the term "unsustainable" liberally, since the idea that the Reserves and National Guard only fill in as an immediate, but temporary surge is pretty much an obsolete idea - now they've become a permanent supplement to active duty forces.)

None the less, the US military might barely be handling the load put on it by two simultaneous wars being tossed on top of its peace time duties protecting Asia from North Korea, etc.

When is the last time the US has fought a war this long and how much longer do you think the military will be able to support these wars?
 
  • #82
BobG said:
Where have you been since the break up of the Soviet Union? With a decade of Bush 41 and Clinton reaping the "peace dividend", a war like Iraq is pretty much unsustainable for more than 6 months. (Using the term "unsustainable" liberally, since the idea that the Reserves and National Guard only fill in as an immediate, but temporary surge is pretty much an obsolete idea - now they've become a permanent supplement to active duty forces.)

The U.S. has been fighting in Iraq a lot longer than six months right now.

None the less, the US military might barely be handling the load put on it by two simultaneous wars being tossed on top of its peace time duties protecting Asia from North Korea, etc.

When is the last time the US has fought a war this long and how much longer do you think the military will be able to support these wars?

The length of the war as opposed to the damage being incurred aren't the same things remember. As for the military supporting these wars, I would think as long as the recruitment remains adequate, and the funding adequate, it can continue to fight them for quite a while.
 
  • #83
turbo-1 said:
This thread is about the legitimacy of the Iraq War. Iraq did not attack the US, had no part in 9/11, and apart from foot-dragging on issues that they claimed related to their sovereignty, they weren't much of a threat to anybody.
In that sense, neither did the Afghanistan native peoples or the Taliban government attack the US, or have any part in 9/11. The Taliban had some general idea Bin Laden was up to something, but no specifics; they even sent a http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2242594.stm" The US was to some degree in the same boat.

Yet 911 took place, launched from Afghanistan soil even though the Taliban had far less military capability than Hussein ever had on his worst day. Does all this mean the NATO invasion of Afghanistan was unwarranted? No. Just tragic.
 
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  • #84
mheslep said:
In that sense, neither did the Afghanistan native peoples or the Taliban government attack the US, or have any part in 9/11. The Taliban had some general idea Bin Laden was up to something, but no specifics; they even sent a http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2242594.stm" The US was to some degree in the same boat.

Yet 911 took place, launched from Afghanistan soil even though the Taliban had far less military capability than Hussein ever had on his worst day. Does all this mean the NATO invasion of Afghanistan was unwarranted? No. Just tragic.

Well the Invasion of Afghanistan is somewhat different. We are not actively killing citizens for one thing (I guess that's since America hasn't really taken a large role in it yet... possibly:smile:). As well we had gone into Afghanistan with the intent of finding and capturing/killing Bin Laden. The taliban are of course fighting back against the occupation however AFAIK the Afghan people want coalition support to topple taliban strength so we continue to fight back now and help rebuild the country.
 
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  • #85
Sorry! said:
Well the Invasion of Afghanistan is somewhat different. We are not actively killing citizens for one thing (I guess that's since America hasn't really taken a large role in it yet... possibly:smile:).

Since when does America go around actively killing civilians/citizens? You think the U.S. military just goes into an area and shoots anything that moves? Do you have any idea how U.S. soldiers are trained or the Rules of Engagement?

One of the main priorities for example in the Fallujah battle was to fight the terrorists without hurting civilians, and one of the accomplishments of that was winning that battle without hurting a lot of civilians that otherwise would have gotten caught in the crossfire.

If there is one military one can state that takes very active steps not to harm civilians, it is the U.S. military.

The U.S. Navy even takes steps not to harm ocean life, like whales.
 
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  • #86
Nebula815 said:
The U.S. has been fighting in Iraq a lot longer than six months right now.
Hence the disclaimer about the traditional definitions of the role of the active duty component and the Reserve and National Guard components. We've never used the Reserves and National Guard so heavily, for such a long time before.

At the end of the cold war, the active duty military had 1.8 million members. By 2001, that was down to 1.38 million (a 23% decrease). Seven years after 9/11 active duty military strength has been increased by about 35,000. This has been a war fought on the cheap, relying on the "temps" in spite of the fact that Reserves and National Guard don't have either the member support or the family support that exists at active duty military bases. They're cheaper to use than active duty, so we're willing to burn through them hoping the war ends before retention and recruiting plummet.



The length of the war as opposed to the damage being incurred aren't the same things remember. As for the military supporting these wars, I would think as long as the recruitment remains adequate, and the funding adequate, it can continue to fight them for quite a while.

2009 was the first year the military met recruiting goals in years. It turns out a high unemployment rate does carry a silver lining.

Retention is more important, anyway (and high unemployment improves retention, as well). In a modern military, you want training and experience. Increasing recruitment to cover decreased retention is a losing proposition.
 
  • #87
Sorry! said:
Well the Invasion of Afghanistan is somewhat different. We are not actively killing citizens for one thing
That's false, the US/NATO are killing Afghans, and vice versa.

(I guess that's since America hasn't really taken a large role in it yet... possibly:smile:).
And that's grotesquely offensive, also known as trolling on internet forums.
 
  • #88
BobG said:
Hence the disclaimer about the traditional definitions of the role of the active duty component and the Reserve and National Guard components. We've never used the Reserves and National Guard so heavily, for such a long time before.
And something that rarely if ever gets mentioned is that these non-active-duty personnel often end up losing their jobs because of the repeated deployments, and many of them own (or used to own) their own businesses and have no way to keep them afloat and retain clients while they are gone overseas.

These people and their families are paying heavy prices for their patriotism and willingness to serve.
 
  • #89
mheslep said:
In that sense, neither did the Afghanistan native peoples or the Taliban government attack the US, or have any part in 9/11. The Taliban had some general idea Bin Laden was up to something, but no specifics; they even sent a http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2242594.stm" The US was to some degree in the same boat.

Yet 911 took place, launched from Afghanistan soil even though the Taliban had far less military capability than Hussein ever had on his worst day. Does all this mean the NATO invasion of Afghanistan was unwarranted? No. Just tragic.

If you're referring to the Taliban's knowledge of the 9/11 attack specifically, then yes you're right. However, the Taliban should have been knowledgeable of bin Laden's and al-Qaeda's terrorist activities in general, since UN sanctions had been in place for sheltering bin Laden since 10/15/1999 (http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/300/44/PDF/N9930044.pdf?OpenElement ). The sanctions consisted of freezing all Taliban assets (bank accounts in foreign countries, etc) and in not allowing any of the planes from a Taliban owned airline to land or take off in neighboring countries. (Note that the UN had deep concerns about discrimination against women and girls and about opium production, but only the terrorist training camps and bin Laden were addressed in the Chapter VII portion of the resolution. Irrelevant, but there is a specific way to read the resolutions.)
 
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  • #90
mheslep said:
That's false, the US/NATO are killing Afghans, and vice versa.

And that's grotesquely offensive, also known as trolling on internet forums.

Sorry for being offensive.

It is however known to me through reporting and through close family members and friends that have served in Iraq that this is occurring there.

I come from Canada so I have a lot more family who are serving in Afghanistan and they do of course speak of the things that occur to citizens there however most of it is just clear accidental. No bombing of cities where insurgents are not located just because; no shooting at people because they happened to be walking on the side of the road they were driving down; and no shooting at people because they had gone to the middle of a road to see something/play with something that was left in the middle of the road (by American soldiers).
 
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  • #91
BobG said:
If you're referring to the Taliban's knowledge of the 9/11 attack specifically, then yes you're right.
Yes I am, to tie the point back to the thread topic - the Iraq war - and to draw scrutiny to what constitutes a "threat". In particular I'd like to apply whatever standards are used for labeling Bin Laden and AQ a threat are also applied to the Hussein and Iraq.

BobG said:
However, the Taliban should have been knowledgeable of bin Laden's and al-Qaeda's terrorist activities in general, since UN sanctions had been in place for sheltering bin Laden since 10/15/1999 (http://daccess-dds-ny.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N99/300/44/PDF/N9930044.pdf?OpenElement ). The sanctions consisted of freezing all Taliban assets (bank accounts in foreign countries, etc) and in not allowing any of the planes from a Taliban owned airline to land or take off in neighboring countries. (Note that the UN had deep concerns about discrimination against women and girls and about opium production, but only the terrorist training camps and bin Laden were addressed in the Chapter VII portion of the resolution. Irrelevant, but there is a specific way to read the resolutions.)
I agree, they were generally knowledgeable but somewhat schizophrenic about Bin Laden. When Bin Laden arrived from the Sudan, Omar told him no terrorist actions, partly under pressure from the Saudis (according to Wright's Looming Towers). Yet they visibly didn't kick him out after the pre 911 attacks (USS Cole, others) and apparently close ranks with Bin Laden rather than moving away. Bin Laden's ordering of the assassination of the famous Afghan northern alliance leader Massoud, a Taliban opponent, probably helped with that.

On the other hand, Hussein was sponsored third party terror attacks by paying bounties to Palestinian suicide bombers, fired almost daily on No Fly patrols, and he certainly had a better chance of eventually obtaining WMD than did Bin Laden in his mountain camp.
 
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  • #92
BobG said:
Hence the disclaimer about the traditional definitions of the role of the active duty component and the Reserve and National Guard components. We've never used the Reserves and National Guard so heavily, for such a long time before.

We aren't maintaining a Cold War-sized Active Duty force.

At the end of the cold war, the active duty military had 1.8 million members. By 2001, that was down to 1.38 million (a 23% decrease). Seven years after 9/11 active duty military strength has been increased by about 35,000. This has been a war fought on the cheap, relying on the "temps" in spite of the fact that Reserves and National Guard don't have either the member support or the family support that exists at active duty military bases. They're cheaper to use than active duty, so we're willing to burn through them hoping the war ends before retention and recruiting plummet.

I don't think National Guard and Reserves are not sent to fight the war themselves, they are integrated in with the Active-Duty.

2009 was the first year the military met recruiting goals in years. It turns out a high unemployment rate does carry a silver lining.

Yes, historically, bad economic times are good for military recruitment.

Retention is more important, anyway (and high unemployment improves retention, as well). In a modern military, you want training and experience. Increasing recruitment to cover decreased retention is a losing proposition.

I agree.
 
  • #93
Sorry! said:
Sorry for being offensive...
Appreciated, moving on...
 
  • #94
turbo-1 said:
And something that rarely if ever gets mentioned is that these non-active-duty personnel often end up losing their jobs because of the repeated deployments, and many of them own (or used to own) their own businesses and have no way to keep them afloat and retain clients while they are gone overseas.

These people and their families are paying heavy prices for their patriotism and willingness to serve.

Although this isn't a good thing, they should not join then. No one forces anyone to join the military. When you join, you know that you may be sent to fight a war. And when you join the Active-Duty military, you are in for at least eight years technically. Whatever is not spent in Active-Duty is spent in either National Guard, Reserves, or the Inactive Ready Reserve (which means you basically are a civilian, but the military can still recall you to duty if necessary).
 
  • #95
The only people to be convinced going to war is appropriate are the people going to war. That's why no one (American) cared what the UN thought.

Legitimacy is a noble truth for historians to debate. Winning hearts and minds is a necessity for leaders to act.
 
  • #96
It seems to me that the only legitimate reason to enter into a war is to end it, while starting a war is always done for immoral reasons disguised with claims of noble ones.
 
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  • #97
kyleb said:
It seems to me that the only legitimate reason to enter into a war is to end it, while starting a war is always done for immoral reasons disguised with claims of noble ones.

:smile:

Still not obvious enough though :(
 
  • #98
allisa said:
They both have to face war crime for their this act.

No they don't. In my opinion even if they knew that Iraq had no WMDs they should not be lablelled as war criminals. Of course some of the actions that soldiers and officers have taken might be questoinable as war crimes but I'm certain they will be punished by their respective countries.
 
  • #99
This discussion is going nowhere. Let's call it good.
 

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