News Was there anything wrong with the Cairo US Embassy's statement

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The U.S. Embassy in Cairo issued a statement condemning efforts to offend Muslims in response to an anti-Islam video, which was released before the attacks in Libya and Egypt. This statement was later removed from the embassy's website, leading to significant political backlash, particularly from Mitt Romney, who accused the Obama administration of sympathizing with attackers rather than condemning them. Critics argue that the embassy's message aimed to cool tensions but lacked White House approval, raising questions about the autonomy of embassies in sensitive situations. The discussion highlights the complexities of diplomatic communication in volatile regions and the political ramifications of misinterpretations. Ultimately, the incident underscores the challenges faced by U.S. officials in balancing free speech with respect for religious beliefs.
  • #51
Evo said:
That's it! In 2010 as part of his probabtion he was banned from usiing the internet, among other things, for 5 years. Where was his probation officer during all of this?

Hoping his boss didn't catch him watching youtube videos at work? Just how does a justice department enforce punishments like that?
 
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  • #52
The English version seems benign enough. The clip had been on Youtube for two months. Then something else happened that would explain, at least for me, what the embassy was trying to do.

Two months after it was uploaded, the 14-minute low-budget film, “Innocence of Muslims,” was dubbed in Arabic, with clips of it being shown on Egyptian TV channels.

http://whatstrending.com/2012/09/youtube-blocks-innocence-muslims-video-violence-erupts-middle-east/

Edit The clips were aired on Sept 8th

http://www.hollywood.com/news/Innocence_of_Muslims_YouTube_Protests/39863758

What we don't know is how the Arabic version translates back to English.

These people are violent fanatics who still live in the 12th century. Remember the Danish cartoons? Do we have to appease them, no definitely not. We do have to experience the consequences

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2...slims_would_find_these_images_offensive_.html
 
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  • #53
Evo said:
The man that made the film is being investigated, IIRC.
I wonder how long does it take to find out that the movie does disrespect Muslims and it does provoke public disorder. Even if it were hard to find out at first, by now, it is proved that it does such violation. I am surprised YouTube didn't removed it.
There is no need to do word plays about what is written in the law and try to interpret it in favor of the movie; if we stick by the motto of the law, it is clear that one shouldn't practice his freedom of speech to disturb public order or to disrespect or insult other people or their beliefs*.

*I know, you should be allowed to differ and reject other peoples beliefs, but having seen so many incidents, isn't it reasonable to make special provision regarding religious beliefs?; for the sake of public order.
 
  • #54


Disregarding the issue of Romney, IMO the Cairo embassy statement itself was clearly an apology. I mean, why else even put it out? The only reason is because of fear. I'd also say it was clearly sympathizing with the protesters (or potential protesters, basically anyone who'd be offended and inclined to start trouble) in that it condemns the religious message. But this is America. We have freedom of speech.

Lauren Bloom, an attorney and business consultant who wrote The Art of the Apology, said that Romney is "once again allowing his emotional allergy to apology to interfere with his judgment."

Bloom said that "if there's anything more central to American values than respecting each individual's right to worship as he or she pleases, I'd be hard-pressed to say what it might be. The statement that ‘respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy’ not only is true, but is as clear an expression of one of our most cherished values as I can imagine."

Respect for religions is not any cherished value of America, religious tolerance is. No one has any problem making fun of Christianity (and no I'm not a Christian, just making a point here). This is a country where if you take a cross of Jesus Christ and stick it into a jar of urine, it's considered some form of modern art. You take a statue of Jesus and cover it in dung, it's a form of art. You do something very offensive regarding the Virgin Mary, and it's "art." Bill Maher makes fun of Christianity all the time. South Park makes fun of it and other religions (they backed off on Islam though when they got directly threatened when they tried it). People have the right to practice whatever religion they please, that's America. And if I want to point and laugh and say that your religion has to be the stupidest, most nutty thing I've ever heard, that's also my right.

EDIT: Okay, I see the above (about respect for other religions) was also covered in the other thread (was there anything wrong with Cairo embassy's statement), hadn't read that thread yet when I typed the above

She said the embassy statement is "not an apology -- quite the contrary, it's a confirmation that the American people recognize the right to worship freely and will not accept religious bullying in the name of free speech. To say that someone who deliberately insults others in the name of religion has acted wrongly isn't an apology -- it's simply a recognition that those insults go too far."

! In other words, they are sympathizing with the protesters and people in the area. And "religious bullying?" Who is she trying to kid? Someone who deliberately insults others in the name of religion is not engaging in an "insult that goes too far," it's free speech. In the case of the embassy, it was an apology, a way of saying, "WE'RE SORRY! Please don't hurt us or kill anyone!" I mean if a group of Christians decided to just hold a normal protest outside of Bill Maher's home, the attitude of most people, especially on the Left, would be "GROW UP!"

Angry Citizen said:
To protestors; not to attackers. The embassy statement came before the attacks. It was an attempt to quell an imminent threat. And frankly, the embassy was right to do so. The film that stirred up the protests was so blatantly offensive and downright evil that an apology - not an implied one, but a full one - was warranted on behalf of the American people. That's not saying the embassy deserved to be attacked, but the statement wasn't made after the attack, now was it?

Regarding the Cairo statement itself, what difference does it make about whether an attack had occurred or not? It shouldn't matter how "offensive" anything is, if people want to say it, they can, same as many do with Christians. The limits are for slander, libel, or the equivalent of crying "FIRE!" in a crowded theater (and on the slander part, I think even there we are pretty lenient).

Something to consider: Most Muslims in the Middle East come from a culture where speech is officially approved by a totalitarian or theocratic figure; it is not free. Most Muslims in the Middle East, by virtue of their being poor as dirt, are also often uneducated and ignorant of American values with regard to free speech. Is it any wonder that they think these films and statements made to offend were approved by the government of the United States?

Then what the embassy should say is simply that the statement is not representative of the U.S. government or the nation as a whole, and that in the United States, we have freedom of speech where people are allowed to insult one another and a religion as they please.
 
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  • #55
edward said:
The producer of the film must have known that it was going to incite violence, which is not covered under free speech.

It's covered. The violence is on the people causing the violence, not the person making the speech.

I_am_learning said:
I wonder how long does it take to find out that the movie does disrespect Muslims and it does provoke public disorder. Even if it were hard to find out at first, by now, it is proved that it does such violation. I am surprised YouTube didn't removed it.

Youtube blocked it from certain countries in the Middle East, but otherwise, they are adhering to free speech.

There is no need to do word plays about what is written in the law and try to interpret it in favor of the movie; if we stick by the motto of the law, it is clear that one shouldn't practice his freedom of speech to disturb public order or to disrespect or insult other people or their beliefs*.

Making fun of a religion or belief system is not disturbing the public order. Yes, if you openly call for violence, then there could be an exception I suppose, but just making fun, ifviolence starts, is on the people doing the violence.

*I know, you should be allowed to differ and reject other peoples beliefs, but having seen so many incidents, isn't it reasonable to make special provision regarding religious beliefs?; for the sake of public order.

IMO nope. It's too dangerous a slippery slope.
 
  • #56
BobG said:
The opinion of the video should stand on its own, regardless of who else agrees with our opinion or disagrees with our opinion. He may be free to post it, but that doesn't mean people aren't free to condemn it as trash.

I don't think it's the condemning of it as trash so much as the "why" of it being condemned that irks some people.
 
  • #57
The White House (does that mean Obama?) has asked Google to investigate whether the video violates their terms of use agreement and to take it down. Google has responded that it does not violate and they won't take it down. Why would the WH make such a request if the video violates the law? More importantly, why would they make such a request if the video does not violate the law?
 
  • #58


Regarding the Cairo statement itself, what difference does it make about whether an attack had occurred or not? It shouldn't matter how "offensive" anything is, if people want to say it, they can, same as many do with Christians. The limits are for slander, libel, or the equivalent of crying "FIRE!" in a crowded theater (and on the slander part, I think even there we are pretty lenient).

For one, the statement didn't say the person had no right to make the film. The statement said it was in poor taste. Free speech does not abrogate others' right to call that speech what it was.

For two, this directly led to the deaths of four people, and the protests are still ongoing. I think this is very much equivalent to shouting "fire" in a theater. Essentially it boils down to inciting a riot, which is usually considered a crime.
 
  • #59
Jimmy Snyder said:
The White House (does that mean Obama?) has asked Google to investigate whether the video violates their terms of use agreement and to take it down. Google has responded that it does not violate and they won't take it down. Why would the WH make such a request if the video violates the law? More importantly, why would they make such a request if the video does not violate the law?
Trying to do what they can to stop the violence against US Embassies and citizerns, I suppose. If it was possible that Google had the right to remove it, a pretty simple solution, no?

We tried to send 50 Marines to add protection to our embassy in Sudan the other day and Sudan refused to allow it.


Sudan Rejects U.S. Request to Send Marines to Boost Embassy Security

A U.S. official said the Marines, “were on their way, but turned back” when Sudan rejected the U.S. request.

In a statement State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland said that the Sudanese government “has recommitted itself both publicly and privately to continue to protect our Mission, as it is obligated to do under the Vienna Convention.”

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...st-to-send-marines-to-boost-embassy-security/
 
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  • #60


The shouting-fire-in-a-theater metaphor is about causing the recipients of the shouter's message, not someone else's message, to immediately fear for their lives and thereby cause them to panic. These film guy/guys did not do that. Neither did the Danish cartoonists, nor Salman Rushdie, nor Theo Van Gogh.
 
  • #61
rootX said:
Does this mean the person who made the movie will be provided protection? Who will be paying for the protection?

Hopefully he goes to jail for violating his parole.

15 September 2012
Throughout his life in hiding, Rushdie was often criticised by people who resented the £1million a year it cost to keep him under police protection.

wiki said:
a fatwā issued by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the Supreme Leader of Iran, on 14 February 1989.

(2012-1989)*(£1million/year)*($1.70/£)=$39,100,000 :bugeye:

Ironic how the "freedom of speech" can turn out so expensive. Not to mention the lives lost, and that will continue to be lost over this.

OmCheeto said:
Nov 4, 2010
...
And who wrote the book? Knowing full well what the consequences would be, shrouded behind a western wall of free speech.

Rushdie is a slimeball...

----------------------------------

dear god, whatever flavor of pasta you may be, please have mercy on my soul.


Bacile is also a slimeball...
and I'll pay for his one way ticket to Benghazi.

Wouldn't be the first time I've made such an offer.
 
  • #62
mheslep said:
The 9/11 statement from the US embassy in Cairo, suggests taking action against such people will not improve the US position in Islamic countries.
It could have been much better if they had just put the statement in front of the embassy. Putting on their website was a mistake IMO because it got attention of the wrong audiences.
 
  • #63
leroyjenkens said:
I have a problem with someone saying speech on certain religious topics is abusing the freedom of speech.

Wel, it all hinges on what the person meant by "abuse". Frankly, I can't see how one could "abuse" any freedom (otherwise, the implication is that there are certain restrictions on freedoms, and IMO thershould be none). If by "abuse" they simply mean using it only to incite, then, yes, I would agree. However, that still doesn't mean the Freedom of Speech should be (legally) restrained.

The part I find interesting is that the implication from the statement is that Freedom of Religion (or rather, the freedom to not be offended, which is not a freedom here) trumps Freedom of Speech.
 
  • #64
CAC1001 said:
It's covered. The violence is on the people causing the violence, not the person making the speech.

Brandenburg v Ohio seems to disagree with you. However, the original question of incitement to "public disorder" is another question - if it passes the test of imminent lawless action, then, yes, it is also covered. But if it fails that test, it isn't. Also, it depends on what the legal definition of "incite" means (I'm no attorney so can't say). Does it mean that the speech calls for such action, or does it mean that such action will likely result from said speech. I see this as a grey area (from a legal standpoint), though I agree only the actual attackers are legally liable.

Then again, the US has no jurisdiction (yes, I understand the embassies are US territory) in Libya as a whole, so I have to wonder how such a law applies at an embassy.
 
  • #65
Haven't read through the entire thread, but it seems to me like the OP is based on a false dichotomy. Comdemnation of A does not equal sympathy for anti-A protesters (violent or not).

On a separate note I think the Embassy should have not felt compelled to denounce the video in the first place, but I'm aware that it's way too easy to pronounce judgment from the safety of my couch.
 
  • #66
edward said:
These people are violent fanatics who still live in the 12th century.

This is way off topic, but I can't resist myself. Arabs in the 12th century were the guardians of western civilization. This is in the period called the Islamic Golden Age. The works of the ancient Greeks may very well have been lost if the Arabs hadn't translated them to Arabic. This is also why so many stars in the sky have Arabic names, such as Algol and Aldebaran.

So, I feel it's off the mark to accuse 12th century Muslims and Arabs of being "violent fanatics." In those years, it was the Christians who were the violent fanatics. The 12th century saw the rise of inquisitions and two crusades.

Again, sorry for being off topic, but accusing terrorists of "living in the 12th century" would be a great compliment to them. Their trouble is that they still live in the 20th century, rather than the 21st.
 
  • #67
Jack21222 said:
This is way off topic, but I can't resist myself. Arabs in the 12th century were the guardians of western civilization. This is in the period called the Islamic Golden Age. The works of the ancient Greeks may very well have been lost if the Arabs hadn't translated them to Arabic. This is also why so many stars in the sky have Arabic names, such as Algol and Aldebaran.

So, I feel it's off the mark to accuse 12th century Muslims and Arabs of being "violent fanatics." In those years, it was the Christians who were the violent fanatics. The 12th century saw the rise of inquisitions and two crusades.

Again, sorry for being off topic, but accusing terrorists of "living in the 12th century" would be a great compliment to them. Their trouble is that they still live in the 20th century, rather than the 21st.

Ahh but they were violent then as now about denigrating Islam or Mohamed including jihad. Not to say that Christians were not or are not violent, but Islam remained more isolated from the world and from change.

The murder of intellectuals and artists who criticize Mohammed is Sunna. Sunna is the perfect example of Mohammed’s life. When Mohammed captured Mecca, he first prayed, then he destroyed all religious art and then he issued death warrants for the artists and intellectuals who had opposed him. There are only two new facts in the Koran, a derivative work. The first new fact is that Mohammed is the prophet of Allah, and the second new truth is that if you don’t believe he is prophet of Allah, you can be killed

http://www.politicalislam.com/blog/you-can-never-awaken-a-man-who-is/
 
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