Water models, numerical simulations questions

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the various models of water, particularly focusing on their ability to explain the properties of water molecules. Participants explore the limitations of classical mechanics in these models and the potential role of quantum mechanics in improving accuracy. The scope includes theoretical considerations, numerical simulations, and the challenges of modeling water at different states.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that existing models of water primarily rely on classical mechanics and may not adequately account for quantum mechanical effects, such as electron tunneling.
  • One participant suggests that the computational simplicity required for simulating large numbers of water molecules limits the incorporation of quantum mechanics in models.
  • Another participant points out that while classical models (e.g., SPC, TIP5P) perform well for bulk liquid water properties, quantum mechanical models (e.g., DFT) struggle with these properties, indicating a complex interaction issue.
  • It is mentioned that quantum mechanical models are more effective for gas phase water or single water molecules, suggesting that the challenge lies in water-water interactions.
  • Participants express interest in finding a model that accurately represents multiple properties of liquid water, highlighting the challenge as an intriguing research opportunity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants acknowledge the limitations of classical models and the potential for quantum mechanics to enhance understanding, but there is no consensus on the effectiveness of current models or the best approach to modeling water.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that while there are models incorporating quantum mechanics, they often involve approximations and may not capture all relevant degrees of freedom. The discussion also highlights the complexity of accurately modeling interactions in liquid water compared to gas phase scenarios.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to researchers and students in chemistry, physics, and materials science, particularly those focused on molecular modeling and simulations of water and related substances.

fluidistic
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From http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/models.html, I see that are many models of water that can "explain" one or some properties of water but no model is accurate enough to explain all the properties of water. From what I understand, all models assume classical mechanics interactions (positive-negative charges as for the protons and electrons) with the Coulombian potential and other potentials. It seems that no model takes into account quantum mechanics "effects" like let's say electron tunneling. I know that water molecule has 2 hydrogen atoms and one would expect the quantum effects to be relevant if one had to build a model that can explain the behaviour of water molecules.
I wonder why no model (correct me if I'm wrong) deal with quantum effects? Why are all the models "so bad" at describing water in general? They're only "good" or "so so" in very restricted ranges of parameters like temperature, pressure, etc. Would the models be much more accurate if quantum effects would be taken into account?
Hmm I had lots of other questions but I forgot them :frown:. Thanks for any input.
 
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"Properties of water" may include properties of a large number of water molecules, which usually requires to simulate a large number of water molecules, which by mere constraints of reality requires a certain degree of computational simplicity for the description and treatment of the individual molecules. The simulation of quantum mechanical effects in Chemistry usually involves a certain amount of computational effort that does not suit well to the computational simplicity demanded by the requirement to simulate many molecules.

It is not true that there are no models that try to take into account QM effects. Using Google scholar for "water model quantum mechanics simulation" gives me 50,000 hits of which at least some of them seem to be exactly that: the description of a simulation of water that takes into account quantum mechanical effects. Note that usually QM simulations are also approximations, and will certainly not take into account all in principle possible degrees of freedom.
 
In addition to what Timo described, you will be surprised to know that the classical water models (SPC, TIP5P,...) do a much better job compared to quantum mechanical models (DFT, Hybrid DFT+HF,..) in terms of describing bulk liquid state water properties. Of course this is not because water is well-described by classical mechanics, it seems that there is significant error cancellation that makes these models work fine. Understanding why quantum mechanical models fail to describe liquid state water is an active research area.

On the other hand, gas phase water or let's say the single water molecule properties are more or less well-described by quantum mechanical models. This indicates that the problem is indeed in describing water-water interaction.
 
Ok thank you guys.
Finding a good -in that it gives several if not most properities of water quite accurately- liquid water numerically applicable model looks a really nice and interesting challenge.
 

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