Wave function of a flame or fire

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of the wave function as it relates to fire or a flame, exploring the theoretical implications and interpretations from quantum mechanics. Participants examine the nature of flames as complex systems and the applicability of quantum mechanical descriptions to such macroscopic phenomena.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that a flame is a large system in contact with its environment, suggesting that it does not have a singular wave function.
  • Others propose that while each particle within a flame has a wave function, the complexity of the system makes it more appropriate to use Statistical Mechanics and Thermodynamics for calculations.
  • A participant questions the shape of the Bohmian wave function in relation to a flame, seeking clarification on its physical representation.
  • Another participant challenges the coherence of the question regarding the shape of the wave function, indicating a lack of clarity in the inquiry.
  • There is a discussion about the limitations of wave functions in describing open systems and the assertion that many particles do not possess a wave function in certain contexts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the applicability and relevance of wave functions to flames, with multiple competing views on whether a wave function can meaningfully describe such a system.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the wave function may not exist for all particles in relativistic cases and that the description of quantum states can depend on whether the system is closed or open to its environment.

rodsika
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Hi, how do you describe the wave function of fire or a flame?
 
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Why do you think those two concepts are related in any way?
A flame consists of air and some flammable material of high temperature - so high that some atoms get ionized.

However, it is a large system in contact with its environment. There is no such thing as "the wave function of a flame". Depending on your favourite interpretation of QM, it does not have a wave function at all, you cannot observe the wave function or the wave function has many, (nearly) disconnected components and you cannot really tell what you call "the flame" in terms of the wave function.
 
Yeah, what this guy said. I mean, technically each particle has a wave function and there's some horrendous mess of them, but any actual calculations you do would be much better done using Statistical Mechanics and Thermodynamics.
 
in a flame in a candle light.. what is the combined shape of the physical bohmian wave function? Is it also flame shape or round? what do you think?
 
Sorry, your question does not make any sense.
 
A bohmian wave function is physical... but what is its shape with respect to an object?
 
VortexLattice said:
Yeah, what this guy said. I mean, technically each particle has a wave function and there's some horrendous mess of them, but any actual calculations you do would be much better done using Statistical Mechanics and Thermodynamics.

No, technically, most particles don't have a wavefunction. A wavefunction (in position space), when it exists at all (not always true in relativistic cases), is the spatial projection of a pure state (a ket). A ket can only describe a closed system, or one whose environment is wholly classical and perfectly well known. That's a useful approximation in many cases, but not in general. For a general case, the quantum states are described by density operators.
 

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