We have y''(t)=B x y'(t), where y:R->R^3

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the differential equation y''(t) = B x y'(t), where y is a function from R to R^3 and B is a constant vector in R^3. Participants explore the implications of this equation for the motion of a particle, specifically focusing on the constancy of the particle's speed and the component of its velocity in the direction of vector B. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and conceptual clarification related to the behavior of the particle's trajectory.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that to show the speed of the particle is constant, one might need to demonstrate that y''(t) is normal to y'(t).
  • Others propose using the equation \(\ddot{\mathbf{y}} \cdot \dot{\mathbf{y}} = (\mathbf{B} \times \dot{\mathbf{y}}) \cdot \dot{\mathbf{y}}\) to derive insights about the speed.
  • A participant mentions that the direction of a cross product is normal to the plane defined by the two vectors being crossed, implying that y'' is normal to y'.
  • There is a suggestion to assume a specific coordinate system where B aligns with the x-axis, and to consider a trial solution for y that reflects the motion of a particle in a magnetic field.
  • Some participants inquire about how to derive \(|y'(t)|^2\) from the expression involving y''(t) and y'(t), seeking clarity on the mathematical steps involved.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the speed is the magnitude of the velocity and discusses the relationship between the squared speed and the dot product of the velocity vector with itself.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various approaches and methods to tackle the problem, but there is no consensus on a single method or solution. Multiple competing views and techniques remain present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants explore different mathematical manipulations and assumptions, but the discussion does not resolve the dependencies on specific definitions or the implications of the assumptions made regarding the trajectory and the vector B.

Poirot1
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We have y''(t)=B x y'(t), where y:R->R^3, and B is a constant vector in R^3

1)If y represents a trajectory of a particle, show the speed of the particle is constant.

2)Show that the component of the particle's velocity in the direction of the vector B is also constant.

My thoughts: For 1) I think I may need to show that y''(t) is normal to y(t).
For 2) If y'(t) is in the direction of B, then is y'(t) x B=0.
 
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1) There's probably something "clever" you can do with this part. Perhaps you could do this:

\begin{align*}
\ddot{\mathbf{y}}&=\mathbf{B}\times \dot{\mathbf{y}}\\
\ddot{\mathbf{y}}\cdot \dot{\mathbf{y}}&=(\mathbf{B}\times \dot{\mathbf{y}})\cdot \dot{\mathbf{y}}.
\end{align*}
What is the RHS now? Could you then do something to this equation that would give you $\dot{\mathbf{y}}\cdot \dot{\mathbf{y}}=(\dot{y})^{2}$ on the LHS?

2) What you've written is correct, but I'm not sure it'll help you much, though I could be wrong. You're interested in $\dot{\mathbf{y}}_{\mathbf{B}}$, my notation for the component of $\dot{\mathbf{y}}$ in the direction of $\mathbf{B}$. Note that if you take your original equation and dot it with $\dot{\mathbf{y}}_{\mathbf{B}}$, a similar sort of thing will happen to what happened in the first part. You might be able to work with that. Also note that
$$\dot{\mathbf{y}}_{\mathbf{B}}=\frac{\mathbf{B} \cdot \dot{ \mathbf{y}}}{\mathbf{B} \cdot \mathbf{B}}\,\mathbf{B},$$
which is the projection of the vector $\dot{\mathbf{y}}$ onto the vector $\mathbf{B}$. Basically, this expression answers the question, "How much of $\dot{\mathbf{y}}$ is in the direction of $\mathbf{B}$?"
 
Last edited:
Poirot said:
We have y''(t)=B x y'(t), where y:R->R^3, and B is a constant vector in R^3

1)If y represents a trajectory of a particle, show the speed of the particle is constant.

2)Show that the component of the particle's velocity in the direction of the vector B is also constant.

My thoughts: For 1) I think I may need to show that y''(t) is normal to y(t).
For 2) If y'(t) is in the direction of B, then is y'(t) x B=0.


Trivially y'' is normal to y' since the direction of a cross product is normal to the plane defined by the two vectors being crossed.

You may without loss of generality assume \({\bf{B}}=(b,0,0)\), that is use a coordinate system with the x-axis pointing along the direction of the magnetic field. Then I would assume a trial solution of the form \( {\bf{y}}=[\dot{y}_1(0) t, \rho \cos(\omega t+\phi), \rho \sin(\omega t+\phi)]\).

If that works it will immediately answer part 2) as well.

You may ask why we would assume something like that, well it is because we know that an electron spirals around the direction of a magnetic field.

CB
 
Last edited:
How do I get |y'(t)|^2 from y''(t).y'(t) and what are trying to achieve by this?
 
Poirot said:
How do I get |y'(t)|^2 from y''(t).y'(t) and what are trying to achieve by this?

The speed is equal to the magnitude of the velocity. One expression to obtain the speed is
$$s=\sqrt{v_{x}^{2}+v_{y}^{2}+v_{z}^{2}}=\sqrt{v_{x}\cdot v_{x}+v_{y}\cdot v_{y}+v_{z}\cdot v_{z}}=\sqrt{\mathbf{v}\cdot\mathbf{v}}.$$
Squaring both sides yields
$$s^{2}=\mathbf{v}\cdot\mathbf{v}.$$
In your case, $\mathbf{v}=\dot{\mathbf{y}}.$ So if you can obtain the expression $\dot{\mathbf{y}}\cdot\dot{\mathbf{y}}$, you take the square root, and you're done.

So, how can you get $\dot{\mathbf{y}}\cdot\dot{\mathbf{y}}$ from $\ddot{\mathbf{y}}\cdot\dot{\mathbf{y}}$? Well, supposing we write it out:
$$\ddot{y}_{1}\dot{y}_{1}+\ddot{y}_{2}\dot{y}_{2}+\ddot{y}_{3}\dot{y}_{3}.$$
Here I've switched to numbers for the indices to avoid confusion arising from the fact that we're using a non-standard notation for the trajectory. What we'd like to get at is
$$\dot{y}_{1} \dot{y}_{1}+\dot{y}_{2} \dot{y}_{2}+\dot{y}_{3} \dot{y}_{3}=
\dot{\mathbf{y}} \cdot \dot{\mathbf{y}}.$$

Now let's look at just one of those previous terms: $\ddot{y}_{1}\dot{y}_{1}$. Remember that each of those is a function of time. I have a function $\dot{y}_{1}$ times its derivative $\ddot{y}_{1}$, and I'd like an expression involving just the function $\dot{y}_{1}$. How could you get that?
 

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