Were ancient civilizations using pyramids as a form of GPS technology?

[Tojen]

The only other info I can find on it is in a table outlining "Empires, Cultures and Civilizations":

Serbia Starcevo I, II -- Start: -5500 bce End: -4800 bce Chalolithic

Serbia Starveco III -- Start: -4800 bce End: -4100 bce

http://www.nexialinstitute.com/700_yr_~.htm
​

I can find no info on Dragoslav Srejovic except his membership in a few archaeological organizations.

The site you've referenced arrives at questionable conclusions based on scanty evidence.

Yes, the website is questionable, but I assume the evidence and conclusions were the archaeologist's, not the webmaster's, but I shall speak no more of it.

 

[quantumcarl]

The only other info I can find on it is in a table outlining "Empires, Cultures and Civilizations":

Serbia Starcevo I, II -- Start: -5500 bce End: -4800 bce Chalolithic

Serbia Starveco III -- Start: -4800 bce End: -4100 bce

http://www.nexialinstitute.com/700_yr_~.htm
​

I can find no info on Dragoslav Srejovic except his membership in a few archaeological organizations.



Yes, the website is questionable, but I assume the evidence and conclusions were the archaeologist's, not the webmaster's, but I shall speak no more of it.

Speak away! I'm just giving my impression of the site.

It seems indiscriminant about the articles it posts. The only consistency is that each article makes a broad claim without the backup of opinions from other camps or follow up as to where we can find the artifacts today.

For instance there's no way to verify any of it. As is the case with the Bosnian site.

We have to go there physically to determine for ourselves if its natural geology or modified geology or entirely man-made.

Even after doing so I would never consider spreading my opinion of the site and its excavator around on the internet or wherever. That amounts to slander or to unbridaled marketing.

The Bosnian Pyramids are what they are... when they're completely uncovered and when there is no question with regard to the structure etc... it will speak for itself.

Let the Visoko hills speak for themselves!

The fact that you were able to find other mention of the Serbia Starcevo site is encouraging. It was an old excavation (1965) so most of the records have long been religated to filing cabinets and the evidence stored in the same warehouse as Indiana Jones' Arc of the Covenant!

Most of the artifacts, summer camps and villages I've unearthed over a 12 year period will never see the light of a halogen bulb in the Anthropology Museum.

The evidence is in drawers and packing crates. My notes are nowhere to be found and my reports from excavations and surveys are in the basement of one or more Government Buildings. I suppose one can physically have them released for inspection... I've never tried. Why bother. I wrote the blo*dy things!

 

[Tojen]

I first brought up the Starveco site because the main objection to Osmanagic's claims from the pros is that there was no one at the time who could have built a pyramid, as in...

“This is total nonsense. It’s impossible. There was no high culture in this region at that time capable of building something on this scale,” said Professor Enver Imamovic, a respected archeologist from Sarajevo.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2135223,00.html

Starveco, if it's legitimate, might refute that, especially if it involves the use of concrete in construction and triangles in its layout. I wonder if the pros are even aware of it. I brought it up again in case Doug Weller might know something about it. But for the time being it will just have to simmer on the back burner, I guess.

I get the feeling that there needs to be a central clearing house for all the work that's been done and is being done in archaeology (if for no other reason than to make it easier for curiosity seekers like me ). There's so-o-o much out there, but digging it up is sometimes like looking for Clovis points in Asia. Quantumcarl wants a report on his West Coast digs? Click, there it is. Want the straight poop on the Starveco site? Click, there it is.

I also want to fly to the moon with Susan Sarandon. The chances of either happening are about the same.

 

[quantumcarl]

I first brought up the Starveco site because the main objection to Osmanagic's claims from the pros is that there was no one at the time who could have built a pyramid, as in...



Starveco, if it's legitimate, might refute that, especially if it involves the use of concrete in construction and triangles in its layout. I wonder if the pros are even aware of it. I brought it up again in case Doug Weller might know something about it. But for the time being it will just have to simmer on the back burner, I guess.

I get the feeling that there needs to be a central clearing house for all the work that's been done and is being done in archaeology (if for no other reason than to make it easier for curiosity seekers like me ). There's so-o-o much out there, but digging it up is sometimes like looking for Clovis points in Asia. Quantumcarl wants a report on his West Coast digs? Click, there it is. Want the straight poop on the Starveco site? Click, there it is.

I also want to fly to the moon with Susan Sarandon. The chances of either happening are about the same.

Susan likes to stay within the gravitational norm but Paris Hilton is available:!) .

Straight poop about anything is something that will be hard to find in this day and age of misinformation. The truth is really only going to be apparent with direct, personal contact with the sites. A central clearing house of cheap airline tickets to all of the museums and archaeological sites in the world for the global citizenery might work better. Education will produce a very happy, wealthy and healthy population. What could possibly be better?

A central clearing house of all the records and evidence from most of the archaeological sites ever investigated would be too easily sabotoged by organized religion or political/facist parties etc... look at what the Taliban did to some very ancient sites in Afganistan... blew em up real good. Look what happened during or right after the big "shock and awe" campaign in Bagdad's national museum... what is considered evidence of the "first civilizations" was totally looted like TVs from an electronics store on a dark day in July.

As you say, Starveco offers support for Sam's claim... if its legitimate. I don't see why it would be anything else. Its from 1965 when misinformation was just a fledgling science.

 

[quantumcarl]

Butterflies and Bunnyrabbits: BBC Newsletter

There was a pole done on one of those sites that has a black background... which is a signature of all the whacked-out-pseudoconspiritus-sanctum-sacred sites... this pole, mind you, is really just another consensus done with these three questions in mind

Is the alleged Bosnian Pyramid...

Completely man-made? :: 35% (204 votes)

Augmented by humans? :: 43% (250 votes)

A mountain? :: 21% (124 votes)

(Total votes: 578)

(Submitted by Greg on Sat, 20/05/2006 - 6:17am)

(sampling may be in error by 99% because 578 whacked-out conspiracy nuts responded to this specific pole... on the other hand, what sampling isn't whacked-out by a prejudiced responder?)

http://www.dailygrail.com/node/3058/results

___________________________________________________________________

I've found a documentary on the Bosnian Pyramid, its in two parts.
You can watch it in Quicktime or WMV.

The Documentaries have some prayer chanting or something over the intro that comes from the region in Bosnia. It is beautiful and feels Egyptian or Arabic in nature...

I guess the area has had its influences.

Here's where to see the documentaries from the BBC Newletter:

http://www.butterfliesandbunnyrabbits.com/qt_visoko.html

____________________________________________________________________

And as a supplement I've found the travelog of Alex Hunger who traveled through Croatia and parts of Bosnia. He gives a detailed description of the megalithic sites throughout the district and a history of the area that goes back to the last ice-age. The detail of his knowledge to do with the structures in the region is very informative.

Pradhulje Tumulus
submitted by AlexHunger

In my nine day stay in Croatia, I arrived in Zagreb and drove 1715km to my point of departure in Dubrovnik through most of Eastern Croatia and parts of Bosnia. During this time I was able to see more than a dozen hillforts, dozens of tumuli, one stone circle and innumerable Roman remains. As I went I was taking GPS readings and photographing for the Portal, so read the first online guide to these sites.

Here's where to read Alex Hunger's full description of his travels:

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2146412186

 

[Tojen]

Well, I haven't looked at the video yet, but the poll reminded me of a quote from a former Canadian prime minister: "Polls (poles) are only good for dogs."

From the dissenting side of the Bosnian pyramids...

I asked Dr. Zahi Hawass [secretary general of Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities] directly. Concerning Barakat, he states: "Mr. Barakat, the Egyptian geologist working with Mr. Osmanagic, knows nothing about Egyptian pyramids. He was not sent by the SCA, and we do not support or concur with his statements."

Meanwhile, Canadian archaeologist Chris Mundigler, whose name had been mentioned as a foreign expert scheduled to work on the "pyramid" excavation, has written to ARCHAEOLOGY, saying that he does not endorse and never agreed to work on the project.

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/osmanagic/update.html

In a http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/25850.html" (seems to be a post-grad student at the U of Leicester in the UK), he starts out by saying, "The idea of a Bosnian pyramid is not completely ridiculous...The concept is not automatically daft." He then disputes the claim that the Bosnian Pyramid is the first to be found in Europe [when in fact there were others before it].

On a map, Mr. Salt measured the sides of the "equilateral triangle" formed by the three outermost hills and found a 10% difference in their lengths.

He quotes from a press release from 18 Jan 2006:

Participation has been confirmed by the following archeologists: Grace Fegan, a leading Irish archeologist, Royce Richards from Austria...

Response from Grace Fegan:

When I logged on to the [Bosnian pyramid] website I found that I was listed as Senior Archaeologist, Kilkenny (I am the senior archaeologist for the firm in which I work, but not for the entire county of Kilkenny!). Most worrying of all was a link through which people could supposedly contact me. When I clicked on it, an email address came up of which I had no previous knowledge and to which I had no access. Needless to say, I found this pretty unsettling. Mr Osmanagich used my name in connection with his project when he had no right to do so...In addition he potentially misled those who visited the website that they could contact me, and that whatever responses they would receive would be from me.

Response from Royce Richards (who is Australian, not Austrian):

Its all a big load of b******s. The “Bosnian Pyramid” is just a shonky attempt by a shonky person to make a name for themselves, its not something I want to be involved with. Its quite annoying as I now get random emails from all kinds of kooks expecting me to be an authority on Bosnian pyramids! The damage this will do to my professional reputation is yet to be seen...!
I never gave Mr Osmanagich permission to give my name to any media organisation and I never gave any media organisation permission to put my name in print. For the record I am an archaeologist. For the record I am not involved in the Bosnian pyramid project. For the record I’m pretty annoyed with finding my name given to the media in relation to Bosnian pyramids.

Mr. Salt concludes by saying, "The past will always be throwing up new things to challenge our preconceptions. But in this instance there's no geological evidence there's a pyramid, there's no archaeological evidence there's a pyramid and the claims are either clearly nonsensical or fraudulent."

There's something else that's been bugging me since I read the "Scientific Report" from Osmanagic. It claims that each side of the the "Pyramid of the Sun" is a very significant 365 metres, but how has he determined where the bottom of each side is, especially since one side seems to blend in with the hill next to it. And how can he make such exact measurements without first uncovering it?

But then, what the bleep do I know?

 

[quantumcarl]

Well, I haven't looked at the video yet, but the poll reminded me of a quote from a former Canadian prime minister: "Polls (poles) are only good for dogs."

From the dissenting side of the Bosnian pyramids...
In a http://hnn.us/blogs/entries/25850.html" (seems to be a post-grad student at the U of Leicester in the UK), he starts out by saying, "The idea of a Bosnian pyramid is not completely ridiculous...The concept is not automatically daft." He then disputes the claim that the Bosnian Pyramid is the first to be found in Europe [when in fact there were others before it].

On a map, Mr. Salt measured the sides of the "equilateral triangle" formed by the three outermost hills and found a 10% difference in their lengths.

He quotes from a press release from 18 Jan 2006:Response from Grace Fegan:
Response from Royce Richards (who is Australian, not Austrian):
Mr. Salt concludes by saying, "The past will always be throwing up new things to challenge our preconceptions. But in this instance there's no geological evidence there's a pyramid, there's no archaeological evidence there's a pyramid and the claims are either clearly nonsensical or fraudulent."

There's something else that's been bugging me since I read the "Scientific Report" from Osmanagic. It claims that each side of the the "Pyramid of the Sun" is a very significant 365 metres, but how has he determined where the bottom of each side is, especially since one side seems to blend in with the hill next to it. And how can he make such exact measurements without first uncovering it?

But then, what the bleep do I know?

I've seen the complaints and the claims of fraud coming from the experts that were sited as joining the excavation in Bosnia then the reports that they have denied ever having been there. All of this sort of back and forth drama takes place on the Archaeology.org site... or is passed back and forth between its members.

The video I posted shows some different angles of the blocks already uncovered on the Visoko hill. The blocks look hand hewn... and they're a metre under the substrate and loam The visuals coming out of the site along with the controversy the excavation is generating leads me to think that this is the kind of discovery many people do not want, and will say or do anything to avoid validating it because it means a lot of re-writing theories and a lot of red-faced... lost face... etc... feelings.

Measurements of the pyramidal hills must take into account that they (according to my hypothesis) have been bombarded by many many cubic tonnes of melt water released by the glacial melt-down of the last "ice age". Going by the aerial etc...photos I've seen of the site debris and water has damaged, shifted and partially buried any structures that may or may not be there. You can't expect perfect measurments from something that has survived a deluge such as the one I am figuring into this history.

Here is some information to back up my claim that, if these are structures and they were already build before the "end of the last ice age" they were subjected to a tumultuous series of floods and "land tsunamis" or what are called "jokulhlaups" in Iceland...

Mapping A Glacial Path Of Destruction
The dangerous power of glacial outburst floods - or jokulhlaups - will be easier to predict thanks to new models developed by a Leeds researcher and presented at the International Glaciological Society symposium in Iceland this Friday (June 23).

These spectacular outburst floods happen as dams of ice and Earth give way or, as from Vatnajokull in Iceland in 1996, when a volcano erupts beneath a glacier. That outburst flood was 10km wide, swept away a bridge and left behind icebergs 10m high.

For the first time, scientists can model the impact of these floods, the damage they could cause and the changes they will make to the landscape. Improved computer power allows them to take digital maps of an area metre by metre and picture the impact of the water as well as the materials carried by the flood.

Continued at: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/06/060620082017.htm

Barring that... if the whole thing is a sham the experts will feel good about themselves and say..."toad ja so". Its pointless for me to repeat myself but I will and say...

Dear Mr. Osmanagic,

You say there's a pyramid. Show me the pyramid.

 

[Tojen]

Dear Mr. Osmanagic,

You say there's a pyramid. Show me the pyramid.

Yes, we have no bananas today. And probably never, is my guess. I'm getting tired of Osmanagic and his claims, and I'm starting to not care whether it's actually a pyramid or not.

Suppose the 365-metre figure is true and accurate. For that to be significant, the people who built the thing had to be using the exact same standard of metric measurement that we use today. I wonder what the chances are of that . Talk about misinformation.

I've heard about jokulhlaups, though not by that name. A large part of Washington State called the Scablands is thought to be caused by one, or a series of them. The topsoil of the Scablands was scoured out down to the bedrock by the sudden, massive flow of water. I wonder if there's a similar landscape in Bosnia.

 

[wolram]

I would have thought that a simple GPR or magnetometer test would prove/disprove this controversey, why all the politics?

 

[quantumcarl]

Yes, we have no bananas today. And probably never, is my guess. I'm getting tired of Osmanagic and his claims, and I'm starting to not care whether it's actually a pyramid or not.

Suppose the 365-metre figure is true and accurate. For that to be significant, the people who built the thing had to be using the exact same standard of metric measurement that we use today. I wonder what the chances are of that . Talk about misinformation.

I've heard about jokulhlaups, though not by that name. A large part of Washington State called the Scablands is thought to be caused by one, or a series of them. The topsoil of the Scablands was scoured out down to the bedrock by the sudden, massive flow of water. I wonder if there's a similar landscape in Bosnia.

Yes you're talking about Yakima and the chapperel of Eastern Washington... just on the way to "the Gorge" for extreme windsurfing! The Columbia flats... or something. The desert is pretty high above sea level but the Columbia was, at one time, the run-off of 1 and 2 mile thick glaciers from around 10,000 years ago. I've been through the area and, besides being the internment area for japanese-american citizens during the 2nd world war, its a desolate and gigantic mixed bag of debris with sage and scrub growing out of it.

By the way... the "cubit" which I have already shown to be a measuring increment used around the world as long ago as 4 to 5 thousand years, is as close to our 3 foot yard measurement as anyone could ever get. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if the yard and all its increments are not based on the cubit... from some distant hybrid of measuring systems.

 

[quantumcarl]

I would have thought that a simple GPR or magnetometer test would prove/disprove this controversey, why all the politics?

GPR (ground penetrating radar) would show an internal structure if there was any. If this is a mound of dirt with a cement casing, the GPR will only show a mound of dirt. There are rumours of tunnels under the features but they may be the only internal structure going on with these hills.

A magnetometer will only show the structural configuration as it appears today... after what is proported to be around 11,500 years or more.

The isostatic lift created by melting glaciers, (where the planetary crust actually rises while the weight of the glaciers is re-distributed by melting) and the destruction wrought by an on slought of melt-water would be the first steps toward disorganizing what is claimed to be an already "primitive" attempt at building a pyramid.

Thus, the whole site, if it is a significant site, may appear a natural one simply because 1: it was built in a primitive manner based on what was a previously natural formation of geology and 2: it has succumbed to natural forces such as powerful floods, geological istostatic lift and resultant seismic activity. These factors may have rendered the site less recognizable as being a site of anthropological significance... yet, regardless, it may actually be one.

I will again direct your attention to a time before GPR and other technological advances when Heinrich Schliemann was simply and obsessively inspired by the writings of Homer and his descriptions of a city named Troy. With a determination that saw him through the chiding and controversy hindering his conviction of finding the city, Schliemann was able to make the discovery of Troy and Mycenae with a simple and imaginative observation of what looked like a natural, ill-defined mound of dirt.

His story echos that of Mr. Osmanagic's:

Heinrich Schliemann has been and is still reproached by archaeologists that he had destroyed many things of great value during his tremendous excavations. But just his boundless inquiring mind was the cause for these great discoveries! Only because of his complete dedication for this goal and by spending a lot of his own money he could achieve such great archaeological sensations. Also the backward time and the underdeveloped methods of archaeological research must be taken into consideration! So it is very unfair to reproach Heinrich Schliemann with many failings because at projects with those dimensions - he employed up to 200 workers at the same time - mistakes are inevitable.
Although he had not studied archaeology, he achieved the greatest discovery in the history of archaeology

From: http://www.net4you.net/user/poellauerg/Schliema/schlieme.html

 

[Tojen]

By the way... the "cubit" which I have already shown to be a measuring increment used around the world as long ago as 4 to 5 thousand years, is as close to our 3 foot yard measurement as anyone could ever get. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if the yard and all its increments are not based on the cubit... from some distant hybrid of measuring systems.

I don't doubt that the yard or metre is derived from the ancient cubit, but the trouble is there were many different cubits, and none seem to be that close to 36 inches, or 914.4 mm.

--Cubit is the name for anyone of many units of measure used by various ancient peoples.
--The natural cubit measures 24 digits or 6 palms. This is about 45 cm or 18 inches (1.50 ft).
--The Egyptian royal cubit...is widely accepted to have been 523.5 to 524 mm (20.61 to 20.63 in) in length...This unit was used virtually unchanged for 3000 years, although some variations were seen.
--A Roman cubit of 16 palms (approximating the ulna, which is about 120 cm, or 47 in.) was also used.
--The English Ell is essentially a kind of great cubit of 15 palms, 114 cm, or 45 inches (3.75 ft).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cubit

There's also a downloadable .pdf document titled "Recovery of the Ancient System of Foot/Cubit/Stadion-Length Units" by Dieter Lelgemann. Some of the ancient cubits he mentions:

--Nippur cubit...518.5 mm
--Egyptian old royal cubit...523.75 mm
--Old trade cubit...448.9 mm
--Remen trade cubit...320.7 mm
--Salamis cubit.....483.9 mm
--Babylonian cubit...496 mm

http://www.fig.net/pub/athens/papers/wshs2/WSHS2_1_Lelgemann.pdf​

(It also includes a diagram showing how the pyramid of Cheops was designed using the old royal cubit.)

Also, if the pyramid was disorganized by a huge rush of water, I don't know how it would have maintained its immaculate 365-metre dimensions.

 

[quantumcarl]

I don't doubt that the yard or metre is derived from the ancient cubit, but the trouble is there were many different cubits, and none seem to be that close to 36 inches, or 914.4 mm.



There's also a downloadable .pdf document titled "Recovery of the Ancient System of Foot/Cubit/Stadion-Length Units" by Dieter Lelgemann. Some of the ancient cubits he mentions:

--Nippur cubit...518.5 mm
--Egyptian old royal cubit...523.75 mm
--Old trade cubit...448.9 mm
--Remen trade cubit...320.7 mm
--Salamis cubit.....483.9 mm
--Babylonian cubit...496 mm

http://www.fig.net/pub/athens/papers/wshs2/WSHS2_1_Lelgemann.pdf​

(It also includes a diagram showing how the pyramid of Cheops was designed using the old royal cubit.)

Also, if the pyramid was disorganized by a huge rush of water, I don't know how it would have maintained its immaculate 365-metre dimensions.

Thanks for all the research on the cubit. It was just a rough guess at what mr. O was talking about.

The immaculate 365 metre dimensions are either accurate or a pigment of the mind of the discoverer. This can only be verified by a visit to the site.

 

[Evo]

Measurements of the pyramidal hills must take into account that they (according to my hypothesis) have been bombarded by many many cubic tonnes of melt water released by the glacial melt-down of the last "ice age". Going by the aerial etc...photos I've seen of the site debris and water has damaged, shifted and partially buried any structures that may or may not be there. You can't expect perfect measurments from something that has survived a deluge such as the one I am figuring into this history.

Here is some information to back up my claim that, if these are structures and they were already build before the "end of the last ice age" they were subjected to a tumultuous series of floods and "land tsunamis" or what are called "jokulhlaups" in Iceland...

Uhm, You "do" know where Bosnia is in relation to Iceland?

You "do" know that the last Ice Age came nowhere near Bosnia, right?

Where is the glacial melt down coming from? Why is there no record of it?

Here are some maps and timelines. (for people that don't know where Bosnia is, it's to the right of the boot heel spur of Italy).

http://www.norwaymyway.com/maps/europe_scandinavia_iceage.html

Map reference for Bosnia.

http://www.usariem.army.mil/depyugo/map.htm

So, unless you can show me documented factual reports that there was a catastrophic flood recorded in this area, let's stop the wild speculation and get back to real facts.

 

[Tojen]

I would have thought that a simple GPR or magnetometer test would prove/disprove this controversey, why all the politics?

Good question, one that I'd like to hear Mr. Osmanagic answer.

On another note, I wonder if he and others on the fringe know the company they're keeping...

Himmler's Crusade - The Nazi Expedition to Find the Origins of the Aryan Race

--At the beginning of January 1939, five German scientists arrived in the forbidden city of Lhasa in Tibet. To get here they had traveled across the Himalayas from British India and had outsmarted the British diplomats who jealously guarded the high mountain passes. The expedition leader, Ernst Schäfer, was a zoologist and something of a Nazi Indiana Jones; with him was Ernst Krause, a botanist who doubled as a cameraman; Karl Wienert was a geophysicist who was measuring variations in the earth’s magnetic field; and there was an anthropologist, Dr Bruno Beger. He was looking for the origins of the Aryan master race in the lost world of the Tibetan plateau. Every one of these men was an officer in Heinrich Himmler’s elite and murderous SS.

--I was repeatedly struck by the similarities between ideas that appealed to Heinrich Himmler and the ones I was reading about in authors like [Graham] Hancock and John Anthony West. This is not to imply that these authors have extreme right wing opinions or in any way sympathise with such obnoxious beliefs. But over and over again I saw the same ideas and the same connections being made...What concerns me is the unconscious acceptance of ideas that, in another time, caused enormous distress and suffering. I invite those offended by my argument to address it objectively and on the basis of the evidence.

--There’s a fascination, in the first place, with a lost and highly accomplished culture that flourished many thousands of years before the great civilisations of the Middle East. For Himmler and his coterie, this lost culture gave rise to the Aryan race whose mastery Himmler was dedicated to upholding.

--In Hancock’s books, which closely follow von Däniken but leave out the spaceships, the extraterrestrials become ‘bearded white strangers’. I discovered other common grounds: for example, a peculiar fascination with ancient astronomy and even the constellation Orion. But the most important bridge between these unlikely parties was always this lost civilisation, this ancient repository of wisdom and high minded elitism. For Himmler, this lost Aryan culture was a pure blooded one and this racial purity was the source of Aryan power and achievement.

http://www.hallofmaat.com/modules.php?name=Reviews&rop=showcontent&id=78

First of all, I am not equating Osmanagic with Nazis, but I couldn't help chuckling at the irony of the descriptions of Ernst Shafer, in the article, and Semir Osmanagic, in press reports, as versions of Indiana Jones.

Second, I was reminded of an earlier post by the dear, departed Aca: "Bosnia is the center of all ancient civilzations". I've also seen that sentiment on Bosnian pyramid websites. Could that be what's driving this whole story?

 

[nannoh]

Uhm, You "do" know where Bosnia is in relation to Iceland?

I believe quantumcarl was using Iceland as an example showing where "land tsunamis" occur today on a smaller scale than they did during the end of the Ice Age, 12,000 years ago, and not referring to a land tsunami from Iceland hitting Bosnia.

You "do" know that the last Ice Age came nowhere near Bosnia, right?

If you look at the map I am providing you will see that there was not a lot of distance between Bosnia and the Ice Sheets to the north of Bosnia, 16,000bp to 12,000bp. In this map you can also see that there was a substancial amount of glaciation taking place very near what is present-day Bosnia.

http://www.norwaymyway.com/maps/europe_scandinavia_iceage.html

Where is the glacial melt down coming from? Why is there no record of it?

What type of record would you like to see? There will be a geological record of large scale, melt water land tsunamis sweeping down the valleys and across the plains of northern europe if anyone takes the time to do a geological survey for these features.

Canadian geologist J. Shaw is now trying to break out of this philosophical prison (religious stima related to siting the effects of large scale floods).

"According to Shaw, heat from the Earth formed huge lakes of meltwater that remained trapped beneath the North American (an example applicable to Northern Europe) ice sheet. As the sheet began to retreat near the end of the glacial age, the water broke through and flowed in torrents down to the Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic Ocean (an example of what probably happened to Bosnia). While flowing under the ice cap, water would have surged in vast, turbulent sheets that sculpted and scoured drumlins (a feature to survey for). Each flood lasted until the weight of the ice cap once again shut off the outlet of the covered lake, Shaw says."

Shaw goes on to estimate that one large drumlin field in Saskatchewan was created when 84,000 cubic kilometers of water was discharged. Just this single episode would have raised global sealevels by about 10 inches in a few days or weeks. Imagine what happened as this water flowed across North America.(example)

http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf066/sf066g11.htm

So, unless you can show me documented factual reports that there was a catastrophic flood recorded in this area, let's stop the wild speculation and get back to real facts.

The "real facts" concerning the Bosnian Pyramids are still in an infantile stage.

 

[Evo]

I believe quantumcarl was using Iceland as an example showing where "land tsunamis" occur today on a smaller scale than they did during the end of the Ice Age, 12,000 years ago, and not referring to a land tsunami from Iceland hitting Bosnia.

And I pointed out that it was ridiculous for him to compare what happened in Iceland which "was" under ice age glaciers to Bosnia, which wasn't even remotely close. I wasn't suggesting that anything from Iceland traveled to Bosnia.

If you look at the map I am providing you will see that there was not a lot of distance between Bosnia and the Ice Sheets to the north of Bosnia, 16,000bp to 12,000bp. In this map you can also see that there was a substancial amount of glaciation taking place very near what is present-day Bosnia.

If you look at that map, you will see that Bosnia was no where near any glaciers.

What type of record would you like to see? There will be a geological record of large scale, melt water land tsunamis sweeping down the valleys and across the plains of northern europe if anyone takes the time to do a geological survey for these features.

Geological evidence, oh wait, there is none.

And why are you posting a link to North America? What has that got to do with Bosnia?

The "real facts" concerning the Bosnian Pyramids are still in an infantile stage.

The "real facts" are that no one should be using the term "pyramid" until one is actually found.

Unless you have FACTUAL NEW EVIDENCE to post, do not post unsupported claims, they will be deleted.

 

[Andre]

Not that it really matters in this discussion but the actual advances and retreats of the Scandinavian Late Weicheselian glaciations have been documented very well http://www.geo.oregonstate.edu/people/faculty/publications/clarkp/Rinterknecht-2006-Science.pdf for instance.

Nothing about Last Glacial moraines in the Balkan though. BTW Those early dates would confirm the little crisis about the Greenland Ice cores ( http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/312/5779/1510

 

[nannoh]

You will find some nicely detailed photography of the interesting masonry at one of the Bosnian "Pyramid" sites at this address I am providing.

http://p083.ezboard.com/fbalkansbosnahercegovinaforum.showMessage?topicID=3165.topic

 

[Tojen]

For the record, Collette Dowell visited Visoko and came away an unbeliever. A few excerpts from her blog show a concern for the volunteers at the site who really believe they are changing the world...

--How do you tell some one who has a faith system ingrained into them that their beliefs are not maybe the truth?...So, the many volunteers who wake up each morning to go to work on something that in their minds is going to change the world and they help make that happen, well, how do you ease into the facts without ripping their hearts out?

--I do not see how you can say something is there and define a civilization that once occupied a specific area until there is some evidence that significantly shows some past human intervention.

--As far as the hills being pyramids, well, I just do not see them yet as such.

http://www.dailygrail.com/node/3458

 

[nannoh]

For the record, Collette Dowell visited Visoko and came away an unbeliever. A few excerpts from her blog show a concern for the volunteers at the site who really believe they are changing the world...

Dr.s Dowell and her geologist husband are apparently not accepted as valid eye witenesses in this thread since the account they gave and that I posted here was erased soon after. Believer or not, nothing has changed with regard to the authenticity of the Bosnian Pyramid claims. Its still "up in the air"!

 

[Evo]

Dr.s Dowell and her geologist husband are apparently not accepted as valid eye witenesses in this thread since the account they gave and that I posted here was erased soon after. Believer or not, nothing has changed with regard to the authenticity of the Bosnian Pyramid claims. Its still "up in the air"!

No, your post was deleted because it had no merit, no scientific comment, it was nothing more than "Hi everyone, just got here, looking around, nothing to report yet, etc..

Now they have something to report.

Thread closed until some Earth shattering new evidence is confirmed.

 

[Evo]

I have agreed to re-open this thread and allow Dr Mensur Omerbashich post his new information here. I haven't finished reading through his link, but now I know what I will be doing tonight.

 

[omerbashich]

A new angle of looking at "Bosnian pyramids": man-shaped hills

Hello everyone,

It’s the first anniversary of this thread's (first) closedown. In the meantime, I've gathered some information at http://omerbashich.blogspot.com/ . Evo was very kind to reopen the thread -- thanks! I'm not sure that my (new) angle of looking at the story will be Earth shattering, but it could be mind shattering (for some at least).

For the record: I’m not doing self-promotion here, I just got fed up with all this budget-eating soup-opera that goes on and on...and on...and has just gained new momentum.

Input in general would be welcome. I think that a healthy and open discussion with the facts and indications as I assembled them (after more than one year of intensive digs and reports) could only help us all to filter/digest all the "Bosnian Pyramids" information that’s out there.

Mensur Omerbashich

 

[Astronuc]

It would be nice to have some dates or chronology with respect to the formation/construction of said pyrmaids, and a correlation with the culture of the time.

I've seen mention of 12,000 years ago, which seems awfully early for structures such as pyramids. This is the Meolithic period - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesolithic - Epipaleolithic period - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epipalaeolithic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Ceramic_culture

Then there is the Vinča culture, "an early culture of Europe (between the 6th and the 3rd millennium BC), stretching around the course of Danube in Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, and the Republic of Macedonia, although traces of it can be found all around the Balkans, parts of Central Europe and Asia Minor."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_culture

I'm just trying to get perspective on the Neolitic cultures in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic#Europe

In southeast Europe agrarian societies first appeared by ca. 7000 BC, and in Central Europe by ca. 5500 BC. Among the earliest cultural complexes of this area are included the Starčevo-Körös (Cris), Linearbandkeramic, and Vinča. Through a combination of cultural diffusion and migration of peoples, the Neolithic traditions spread west and northwards to reach northwestern Europe by around 4500 BC.

One has to ask, do such structures exist in other areas which also had settlements in Neolithic times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic#Technology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_Europe#List_of_cultures_and_sites

Another reference - http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/index.htm
http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/history-pre.htm

Then what about later cultures?
Bronze age?

 

[omerbashich]

The whole area (valley) is very rich in terms of archaeological finds. There are teams of German, British and other leading archaeologists working around the clock at various sites in Bosnia. Germans are working nearby Visocica, on some exquisite Neolith sites. But you don't hear that in media. As far as I know, these real archaeologists are not funded by Bosnian authorities, but by their respective institutions/governments grants only.

I can testify on this archeological richness: I remember when I was a kid growing up even in the urban parts of Sarajevo, that we used to find things by pure chance, such as stone-made spear arrows and such. We would take them to the nearby museum and they accepted them. There are lots of human traces to be found around Bosnia and you don't even have to dig deep for those, a few decimetres perhaps. From what I heard, this German team was digging less than half a metre when wonderful finds showed up.

The thing is, there is enough knowledge on those periods in this part of Europe that any ideas of pre-Stone Age (10,000 yr) civilizations can be safely ruled out, I'd say at 99%. There were some tribes here and there of course, from the early Stone Age going back for 100s kyr, but traces of a civilization would have been remarkably spread and not so hard to find, one would think.

 

[Astronuc]

The Balkans are certainly rich in history and archeology.

I am familiar various sites in Bulgaria, e.g. Starosel, Kazanluk, Sveshtari, . . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starosel (finds back to 5-6 millennium BC, but tomb is from ~ 4th or 5th cent BC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Kazanlak (4th century BC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Sveshtari (3rd century BC)
http://www.bgtravel.com/bulgaria-treasutes.asp

It is not out of the realm of possiblity that a pyramid-type structure was constructed in Bosnia. Perhaps it is an example of a tumuli, or related structure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus

On the other hand, perhaps it is a natural hill that has been augmented by humans.

I think the questions are when was the structure in question built, and are theories as to what it is consistent with the cultures at the time of construction and since.

I'll drop this here since I don't know where else to put it and it might be somewhat relevant.
http://www.cimec.ro/arheologie/livingpast/nr1/boroneant/mesolithic.htm#schela
The Mesolithic Habitation Complexes in the Balkans and the Danube Basin

 

[omerbashich]

The Balkans are certainly rich in history and archeology.

I am familiar various sites in Bulgaria, e.g. Starosel, Kazanluk, Sveshtari, . . . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starosel (finds back to 5-6 millennium BC, but tomb is from ~ 4th or 5th cent BC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Kazanlak (4th century BC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_Tomb_of_Sveshtari (3rd century BC)
http://www.bgtravel.com/bulgaria-treasutes.asp

It is not out of the realm of possiblity that a pyramid-type structure was constructed in Bosnia. Perhaps it is an example of a tumuli, or related structure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus

On the other hand, perhaps it is a natural hill that has been augmented by humans.

I think the questions are when was the structure in question built, and are theories as to what it is consistent with the cultures at the time of construction and since.

I'll drop this here since I don't know where else to put it and it might be somewhat relevant.
http://www.cimec.ro/arheologie/livingpast/nr1/boroneant/mesolithic.htm#schela
The Mesolithic Habitation Complexes in the Balkans and the Danube Basin

That is very interesting, thanks for the links.

The problem with the tumulus explanation is that tumuli seem rather too small compared to Visocica (etymologically even: tumulus means a small hill in Latin, according to the link you provided). Besides, I don't think it's quite common to find forts and towns built on top of tumuli as those were rather sacred places (burials). Therefore I think a shaped hill explanation is far more plausible.

 

[Astronuc]

That is very interesting, thanks for the links.

You are most welcome.

The problem with the tumulus explanation is that tumuli seem rather too small compared to Visocica (etymologically even: tumulus means a small hill in Latin, according to the link you provided). Besides, I don't think it's quite common to find forts and towns built on top of tumuli as those were rather sacred places (burials). Therefore I think a shaped hill explanation is far more plausible.

I would agree about not building a fort or town on a burial place, unless it was much later (e.g. centuries or millenia later), what with erosion.

I think hills become forts/towns or burial places, but not both in the same location. On the other hand, I am also thinking of the technology/architecture which implies both a capability and propensity to construct a pyramidal structure.

I would imagine that burial sites would even be considered haunted in some cases - e.g. barrow wights or wraiths.

I would agree that a shaped or augmented hill is more plausible.