What Are the Flaws in Stenger's Argument on the Origins of Order?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the perceived flaws in Victor Stenger's argument regarding the origins of order in the universe, as presented in his book "The Fallacy of Fine Tuning." Participants explore the implications of entropy, the nature of low-entropy states, and the potential biases in Stenger's writings, questioning the completeness and clarity of his explanations.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that Stenger's assertion about the universe starting with maximum entropy does not adequately explain the emergence of order, suggesting that critical details may be omitted.
  • There is a call for clarification on how inflation could generate a low-entropy state, indicating that this is a necessary component to demonstrate the formation of order.
  • Concerns are raised about Stenger's potential biases due to his other works, leading some to question the integrity of his arguments and whether they are influenced by an agenda.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about Stenger's credibility, labeling him as a "crackpot" based on the titles of his other books, while another participant initially considered giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express disagreement regarding the adequacy of Stenger's argument and the completeness of his explanations. There is no consensus on the validity of his claims or the motivations behind his writings.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that there is no firm answer to the question of where order originates, acknowledging that while there are potential explanations, none are definitively established in the context of the discussion.

bobsmith76
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This comes from Stenger's book the Fallacy of Fine Tuning. This passage doesn't look correct to me. I don't think it explains where order comes from, and I have a feeling that he's leaving a lot of details out

Thus the universe starts out with maximum entropy or complete disorder. It begins with zero information. It has no record of anything that may have gone on before, including the knowledge and intentions of a creator. If a creator existed, he left no record that survived that initial chaos. Once the universe exploded into the inflationary big bang, the entropy in any volume less than the Hubble volume is less than maximum, leaving room for order to form
 
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bobsmith76 said:
This comes from Stenger's book the Fallacy of Fine Tuning. This passage doesn't look correct to me. I don't think it explains where order comes from, and I have a feeling that he's leaving a lot of details out

Thus the universe starts out with maximum entropy or complete disorder. It begins with zero information. It has no record of anything that may have gone on before, including the knowledge and intentions of a creator. If a creator existed, he left no record that survived that initial chaos. Once the universe exploded into the inflationary big bang, the entropy in any volume less than the Hubble volume is less than maximum, leaving room for order to form
Well, it is definitely incomplete. To demonstrate order, you do have to demonstrate where that low-entropy state came from. And that is sufficient.

I do not have the book, however. I am assuming he explains how inflation is able to generate a low-entropy state?
 
bobsmith76 said:
I don't think it explains where order comes from, and I have a feeling that he's leaving a lot of details out.
A quick search reveals that he's an author of other books like: God: The Failed Hypothesis, The New Atheism, Quantum Gods, Has Science Found God?, and some others. Sounds to me like there might be an agenda behind his writings, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were indeed "a lot of details" left out.
 
coupe said:
A quick search reveals that he's an author of other books like: God: The Failed Hypothesis, The New Atheism, Quantum Gods, Has Science Found God?, and some others. Sounds to me like there might be an agenda behind his writings, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were indeed "a lot of details" left out.
Ahh, and here I was giving the author the benefit of the doubt!

I should mention that there isn't actually a firm answer to the question I posed. There are potential answers, but no firm ones. If the author was sufficiently nuanced elsewhere, it would, nevertheless, have been understandable. But it's patently clear to me that he's an absolute crackpot based upon those books.
 

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