What Defines the Ideological Divisions Within the Tea Party Movement?

[daveb]

came across this today. it's from a couple of years ago, but the interesting thing is how subsidized housing is not treated as income, leading to an additional food subsidy. i always thought the issue was pay-related, but it seems some have been gaming the system.

http://www.military.com/news/article/more-troops-relying-on-food-stamps.html

While I absolutely believe we should help out our men and women in uniform, as well as their immediate families, I have to wonder what is it about those living on base (as the article says) that makes them need food stamps? Their housing and medical are 100% covered, so where is all their pay going?

 

[daveb]

I'm fully in favor of making sure the military is cared for - my concern is the private sector programs. I don't know why the Government doesn't act like the largest consumer of food in the world AND NEGOTIATE FOR A DISCOUNT on the main items? Instead of allowing unrestricted retail purchases (of high mark-up items) - why not pay wholesale rates via development of a generic line - buy direct and pay a reasonable distribution fee to select retailers.

GREAT GOOGILY MOOGILY!

Has no one before thought of this? This is a fantastic idea! Sounds like you might just want to start a new business there.

 

[WhoWee]

GREAT GOOGILY MOOGILY!

Has no one before thought of this? This is a fantastic idea! Sounds like you might just want to start a new business there.

The Agriculture Department has over 105,000 employees (according to this link). I'm pretty sure they could spare a dozen of them to work on a plan.
http://pileusblog.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/ratio-of-farmers-to-department-of-agriculture-employees/

"Using 105,000 total USDA employees and the BLS figure of 1.2 million farmers and farm workers — you get a ratio of 1 employee for every 11.4 farmers."

 

[BobG]

came across this today. it's from a couple of years ago, but the interesting thing is how subsidized housing is not treated as income, leading to an additional food subsidy. i always thought the issue was pay-related, but it seems some have been gaming the system.

http://www.military.com/news/article/more-troops-relying-on-food-stamps.html

I'm not quite sure I'd call it gaming the system. Either they're eligible by program rules or they're not. The glitch is with the Food Stamp's rules for eligibility.

None the less, it's been a slightly controversial issue for decades. Military personnel that live off base receive a non-taxable allotment that should cover about 85% of the cost of paying rent/paying a mortgage (it's a standardized amount, so the allotment covers more for some and less for others). Toss in gas, electric, trash pick-up, sewer and wastewater fees and people living off base have a harder time getting by than people living on base (those utilities are free on base). Yet it's the people living on base that are eligible for food stamps; not the people living off base.

That said, there still aren't many bases where the most likely to be eligible for food stamps (enlisted members) would choose base housing over off base housing. While they've been improving housing, most base housing is still pretty depressing. Unless you're lucky enough to be stationed at one of the exceptions. There's a few bases where base housing is very nice.

 

[skippy1729]

I think you forgot the most important part - Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, and the rest of the right-wing media. It is a movement driven by smoke and mirrors that actually finds its roots in the Nixon administration!

The Nixon administration as the roots of the Tea Party? What a cheap shot!

Nixon was no conservative. Remember Wage and Price controls. Made friends with the Red Chinese; how is that working out for us?

An obsession with "enemies".

An arrogant White Houise.

A thug as chief of staff.

A buffoon as vice-president.

Continuation and expansion of his predecessors war policies.

Trashing the dollar.

The secretary of state as the only adult in the room.

An ultra-partisan attorney general.

A historically large re-election warchest.

Who am I talking about Nixon or Obama?

Will there be ANY surprise if the WH adopts Nixonian tactics in the upcoming re-election? Will there be any journalists left to report it if they do?

Cheers, Skippy

 

[WhoWee]

After Nixon opened China the world seemed to quickly accept that human rights were a valid concern. Accordingly, many US companies have taken care to protect their public image and avoid damage to their brands. IMO - the US has provided assistance in an effort to encourage China to improve conditions for workers on their own initiative.

However, given that we owe China about $1.5Trillion would the TEA Party be considered radical or extreme if they spoke out against continuing to provide $47Million in annual aid to China?

 

[DoggerDan]

While I absolutely believe we should help out our men and women in uniform, as well as their immediate families, I have to wonder what is it about those living on base (as the article says) that makes them need food stamps? Their housing and medical are 100% covered, so where is all their pay going?

All what pay? An E2 makes $1,644 a month in basic pay. Housing is $462 without dependants, and $615 with, but that's not paid when they live on base. They also get $325 for food, unless, of course, they have access to the chow hall on base. So, yes, they qualify for food stamps if they have a wife and kids.

Meanwhile, an officer with a couple of years in makes about twice that amount, so no food stamps for them.

 

[Evo]

All what pay? An E2 makes $1,644 a month in basic pay. Housing is $462 without dependants, and $615 with, but that's not paid when they live on base. They also get $325 for food, unless, of course, they have access to the chow hall on base. So, yes, they qualify for food stamps if they have a wife and kids.

Meanwhile, an officer with a couple of years in makes about twice that amount, so no food stamps for them.

Considering that the pay is net, if they live on base they don't pay rent, they don't pay medical, they can shop at the PX at reduced prices and no tax, that net pay should not qualify them for food stamps, it's all gravy, basically. Now a family making $1,644 a month that has to pay for all of those things would, IMO, qualify for food stamps.

Yes, I was married to an enlisted man years ago and no one would have even considered such a thing.

 

[daveb]

All what pay? An E2 makes $1,644 a month in basic pay. Housing is $462 without dependants, and $615 with, but that's not paid when they live on base. They also get $325 for food, unless, of course, they have access to the chow hall on base. So, yes, they qualify for food stamps if they have a wife and kids.

Meanwhile, an officer with a couple of years in makes about twice that amount, so no food stamps for them.

I hadn't realized that. When my dad was in the AF way back when, I was under the impression our base housing was paid for (obviously, food wasn't). I guess that's changed, which is a pity.

 

[BobG]

I hadn't realized that. When my dad was in the AF way back when, I was under the impression our base housing was paid for (obviously, food wasn't). I guess that's changed, which is a pity.

I think you misinterpreted him. If you live on base, you don't pay for housing and the military doesn't give you money to pay for housing. If you live off base, the military gives you money to pay for housing.

In other words, the rationale is that the military gives you free housing (and free utilities) or they give you money to alleviate the cost if you have to procure your own housing off base.

They give you free food at the chow hall, or they give you money to alleviate the cost if you have to procure your own food - which a family obviously has to do since only military can eat at the dining hall (except for some special situations where there is no place else to eat, whether you're military or civilian).

 

[daveb]

O, then that still makes me wonder...if a family is living on base, where is all their money going?

 

[WhoWee]

Perhaps the President will begin to understand the TEA Party members are not "terrorists"?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/08/obama-clashes-with-tea-party-member/1
http://bcove.me/ysss6oa3

 

[OmCheeto]

Perhaps the President will begin to understand the TEA Party members are not "terrorists"?

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/theoval/post/2011/08/obama-clashes-with-tea-party-member/1
http://bcove.me/ysss6oa3

I just received a message:

Bite your lip Om. Bite you lip.

 

[OmCheeto]

I just received a message:

Sorry for my brevity this morning, I was late for work.

I'm afraid that I can find no source that Biden publicly called the Tea Partiers terrorists.

But if he did it behind closed doors, I have no problem with it.

I say lots of nasty things like that, and think even worse things.

But it is an interesting comparison. Tea Party = Terrorists.

Terrorists: get money from rich countries that hate America.
Tea Partiers: get money from rich Americans that like being rich.

Terrorists: don't really understand why they blow people up.
Tea Partiers: don't really understand that they are going to blow up the country.

Terrorists: angry
Tea Partiers: angry

Terrorists: use religion as an excuse for what they do
Tea Partiers: use religion as an excuse for what they do

Terrorists: don't seem to comprehend the Koran.
Tea Partiers: don't seem to comprehend the Bible.

Terrorists: Don't seem too bright
Tea Partiers: Don't strike me as too bright

Terrorists: Lots of time on their hands
Tea Partiers: Lots of time on their hands

Terrorists: Starts with a T.
Tea Partiers: Starts with a T.
(submission by Rene, who is sitting next to me at the moment, eating a fahita, and says she really doesn't know anything about them, except that they must have been influenced by the original Boston Tea Party. The rest of the people whom I queried on similarities said; "I don't know what you are talking about. I don't follow politics.", "What's a Tea Party?". I didn't ask the really big guy at the end of the bar what he thought, because he already looked mad. (as in, insane) )


Of course, I could go on and on, but it's getting late, and I have a date with a mole.

And of course, this shall all be labeled: IMHO

But this is how I perceive the Tea Party.

Please help me Obi-Wan, to understand these people, you are my only hope.

ps. For every subliminal message from God this morning that people can pick out from his/her/its message, I will send $5 to the keep so and so in University. I saw at least $35 worth.

 

[Evo]

O, then that still makes me wonder...if a family is living on base, where is all their money going?

That's the question I have, so many people live payday to payday with nothing left over and still have to worry about unexpected medical expenses, military do not, and they have all of that money left over every month, how can they qualify for food stamps? Something is very wrong with the system.

 

[WhoWee]

That's the question I have, so many people live payday to payday with nothing left over and still have to worry about unexpected medical expenses, military do not, and they have all of that money left over every month, how can they qualify for food stamps? Something is very wrong with the system.

This might surprise some - but I don't think military personnel should pay for any food, clothes, housing, cable TV/internet, utilities, or medical care if they live on base - let them save their pay and build a nest-egg.

 

[Evo]

This might surprise some - but I don't think military personnel should pay for any food, clothes, housing, cable TV/internet, utilities, or medical care if they live on base - let them save their pay and build a nest-egg.

If they stay in they get a very nice retirement, and all of the things you listed are free to military with the exception of clothes, not sure about cable/internet, there was no internet when my husband was in the Navy, but all of our utilities were free. The only thing other than clothing that military have to pay for is their personal car and car insurance. Clothing can be purchased from military stores at a reduced cost and tax free. Clothing costs shouldn't be much, if it is, that's a personal problem.

 

[WhoWee]

If they stay in they get a very nice retirement, and all of the things you listed are free to military with the exception of clothes, not sure about cable/internet, there was no internet when my husband was in the Navy, but all of our utilities were free. The only thing other than clothing that military have to pay for is their personal car and car insurance. Clothing can be purchased from military stores at a reduced cost and tax free. Clothing costs shouldn't be much, if it is, that's a personal problem.

That's good - the other aspect I keep hearing and reading is that on-base housing is inconsistent. It's hard to imagine the military wouldn't encourage personnel to improve facilities and provide all necessary supplies?

 

[Evo]

That's good - the other aspect I keep hearing and reading is that on-base housing is inconsistent. It's hard to imagine the military wouldn't encourage personnel to improve facilities and provide all necessary supplies?

Obviously enlisted personnel get the lower end housing compared to officers.

I lived in condemned housing that was built after WW1 as temporary housing off Boling AFB in DC. Every year, right after Thanksgiving, the base commander would do the obligatory walk thru, re-condemn the houses, give the Navy 30 days to move us out, and then repeat the following year.

I've written about the condition of the housing before, so won't repeat it, but we were given free materials to do home repairs ourselves, but when the walls fall off of the house or the floors collapse under you, that's more than most housewives can do by themselves.

The years I spent in that condemned duplex are some of the best memories of my life. I had a huge yard and garden, I fixed the house up, repainted it, replaced shutters, put up a picket fence and won monthly landscape competitions. It's all about what kind of person you are. Those that cared made condemned housing into delightful cottages, the scumbags had homes that looked like slums.

That housing area was finally bulldozed years back, rather sad because some of us really made those homes adorable, even if you couldn't open the doors or windows from inside the house when it was humid and had to attract strangers walking down the street to kick your door in so you could get out of the house. I like to think of the homes as "quirky".

I hate to point it out, but a lot of people that join the military (enlisted) are not exactly pillars of society. Many are misfits, failed at school, and can't hold jobs, they joined the military as a last resort. It's no wonder that many can't manage their money.

 

[WhoWee]

Obviously enlisted personnel get the lower end housing compared to officers.

I lived in condemned housing that was built after WW1 as temporary housing off Boling AFB in DC. Every year, right after Thanksgiving, the base commander would do the obligatory walk thru, re-condemn the houses, give the Navy 30 days to move us out, and then repeat the following year.

I've written about the condition of the housing before, so won't repeat it, but we were given free materials to do home repairs ourselves, but when the walls fall off of the house or the floors collapse under you, that's more than most housewives can do by themselves.

The years I spent in that condemned duplex are some of the best memories of my life. I had a huge yard and garden, I fixed the house up, repainted it, replaced shutters, put up a picket fence and won monthly landscape competitions. It's all about what kind of person you are. Those that cared made condemned housing into delightful cottages, the scumbags had homes that looked like slums.

That housing area was finally bulldozed years back, rather sad because some of us really made those homes adorable, even if you couldn't open the doors or windows from inside the house when it was humid and had to attract strangers walking down the street to kick your door in so you could get out of the house. I like to think of the homes as "quirky".

When you consider the strict military rules and the importance placed on personal responsibility - doesn't it follow that all housing should be kept to the same standards as - uniforms?

 

[edward]

When you consider the strict military rules and the importance placed on personal responsibility - doesn't it follow that all housing should be kept to the same standards as - uniforms?

The military must put it's personnel in the housing it has not the housing it wishes it has.

According to family members military housing has improved greatly in the past five years or so.

Edit: Oops i forgot that the DOD is in the process of privatizing military housing.

 

[Evo]

When you consider the strict military rules and the importance placed on personal responsibility - doesn't it follow that all housing should be kept to the same standards as - uniforms?

They don't enforce home maintenance for some reason, it's a shame. That's why some people choose to live off base instead of taking their chances on what kind of neighbors they might get.

My husband and I had to live off base until we were able to get into the sub-standard military housing, there was a waiting list for married couples. The apartment wasn't any better, but we were determined to live as cheaply as possible in the safest place possible. We got lucky when we got a house, we had mostly over-acheivers on our block, and those that weren't felt bad when we fixed up our places, so that most at least painted their homes and mowed their yards so that they wouldn't be ostracized. They didn't do improvements, but at least they kept the exterior of their homes clean. You could walk a block over and think you were in a third world country.

They did build fancy new condos on base, but it went by seniority, so we had no hope of moving into them.