What are the potential solutions for the EU refugee crisis?

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In summary, the EU and refugee crises are a problem. Astronuc created a thread concerning the issue but it doesn't seem to be attracting much attention. There is discussion of what to do about the problem, but there are some flaws in the ideas being discussed. There is also a problem of nationalism reducing effectiveness of state apparatus of repression.
  • #1
Czcibor
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2 years ago Astronuc created a thread concerning EU refugee crisis but it does not seem attract much attention. In the meantime the situation deteriorated:
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/eu-and-refugee-crises.725935/A few nice graphs with statistics:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-how-they-are-getting-to-europe-10482415.html

So there is an awkward question what to do with the problem. There is one very big perverse incentive that is not mentioned openly - if a person stays in his awful country, then not many people in Europe care much. Sure, some minor humanitarian aid would be sent from time to time, to calm down conscience, but not much more. It would be perceived as additional help, and if it not work, then well - not our problem. However, if the same person arrives to an European country, then well... should be taken care off. Thus it seems that such people are being invited to Europe.

Solution I - take more refugees. In my language they would be called as literally "cuckoo egg", which more or less should be translated as "hot potato". So idea is to move those refugees somewhere else.
Dotini said:
In terms of humanitarian relief for the refugees, it is interesting that Chancellor Merkel is taking in 800,000/yr, but other Euro states are in great disagreement as to what to do.
There is idea of to split those refugees among countries based on some population /GDP. Austria was especially vocal about this subject. There are however some minor flaws in this idea:
-in East Europe the refugee crisis is a urgent and serious problem as... Russian imperialism from Austrian perspective (I'm curious whether someone already offered Austrians/Germans taking refugees on condition of moving military bases east ;) )
-Unless we're supposed to keep those refugees in detention camps, no one specified how shall we prevent them escaping to Germany though open borders.
Also this idea do not specify what shall be done in case of such success would attract even more refugees to Europe.

Solution II - send army and stabilize those failed states. Not officially discussed. There would be a serious problem of huge expenses and flag wrapped coffins coming back home. Plus an epic level challenge of nation building, which was faced by Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan.
If that wasn't enough, then as said Dotini:
Dotini said:
IMO, the US and the UK should be morally obliged to take the most of them. As of today, I believe the US takes in 1000 Syrians/yr out of a total refugee intake of 60,000/yr.
The same crisis, from the moment you sent army, would be treated as your fault and responsibility. Thus you would expected to take refugees. So better keep it as not your problem.

Solution III - revival of nationalism. So far EU enfant terrible, Viktor Orbán (Hungarian prime minister) started in hurry putting barbed wire on his border. He was mumbling also something about not wanting Muslim and mentioning prior Osman Empire occupation of his country. Judging from setting fire to a few refugee camps in Germany he is not the only person who thinks in that way, just lack of PC in his country let to top politician to speak his own mind.

HossamCFD said:
It's not clear if that's possible at all at this point. May be Syria doesn't have a future. May be the best thing to do is to just accept as many refugees as possible.
Best for whom? Because such people would be a terrible resource drain for first few years. Security threat. And so far Muslims don't integrate well in Western societies, so presumably would be also a resource drain for a few generations. (also indirect one as in democratic process, judging from the outlook of Muslim states, they would rather not support parties preoccupied with good governance, and more supporting parties who would just promise them goodies. Sure, we already have plenty of such local people, but it would move the balance in undesired direction)

There is one more thing that is not being mentioned, or if mentioned being described as some irrational racism among bottom strata of society. Not so irrational. In case of any riots/crime increase, they would be hit, so left wing leaning elites would make them a sermon concerning tolerance, while staying in good parts of cities. Also in case of all goodies provided by safety net, discovering that there are plenty of competitors who deserve them more is not so encouraging.

There is also a not mentioned problem of ideology reducing effectiveness of state apparatus of repression. It is considered so nice, however... Let's think about the problem of Romanian Roma (Gypsies). It would be highly racist to let all Romanians in, except them. Highly racist and so on, guaranteed ruling by European Court of Justice. But if one just not let any Romanians... Exactly... Romania had problems to join Schengen Zone exactly because of that, and it was highly improper to mention what's exactly the problem.
This problem is seen by masses. So actually they start discussing merits of even more draconian policies, that would be necessary just to keep authoritarian-leaning order.

OK, so my guess is that we would use Solution I for a while. Unless a miracle in the Middle East happen, we would reach a turning point during which masses would be vivid enough to support Solution III. Not nice perspective, but seems for me the most likely, based on contemporary trends.
 
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  • #2
I don't think any country should be obligated to accept migrants and refugees. These people are only going to burden the economies of these countries, and there's no reason they should have to deal with someone else’s mess.

Instead of fleeing the country and looking for handouts from the rest of the world, maybe the Syrian people should try and do something about the conditions at home - like other people have in the past - and fix the root of the problem. I know that's easy for me to say, but just because it's difficult or dangerous doesn’t mean it's not the correct solution.
 
  • #3
Czcibor said:
Best for whom?
I thought that was clear from the context. Best for the people facing the crisis, whose country imploded on itself. Of course it's better for everyone else to do nothing about it the same way it's better for a commuter not to move his/her bag from an empty seat in a crowded train, but that goes without saying.

Notice that my comment was in the context of what can we do to stop Assad and Daesh, not specifically addressing the refugees crisis. If Syria can indeed be rescued after all, then it would be better to support refugee camps in the neighbouring countries (Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan are already hosting around 3.8 million Syrian refugees).

dipole said:
Instead of fleeing the country and looking for handouts from the rest of the world, maybe the Syrian people should try and do something about the conditions at home - like other people have in the past - and fix the root of the problem. I know that's easy for me to say, but just because it's difficult or dangerous doesn’t mean it's not the correct solution.
I don't think you can realistically ask a father to sit tight waiting for a barrel bomb to claim his children's lives. Bare in mind 240,000 people were already killed in this civil war.
 
  • #4
HossamCFD said:
I thought that was clear from the context. Best for the people facing the crisis, whose country imploded on itself. Of course it's better for everyone else to do nothing about it the same way it's better for a commuter not to move his/her bag from an empty seat in a crowded train, but that goes without saying.

Notice that my comment was in the context of what can we do to stop Assad and Daesh, not specifically addressing the refugees crisis. If Syria can indeed be rescued after all, then it would be better to support refugee camps in the neighbouring countries (Turkey, Lebanon, and Jordan are already hosting around 3.8 million Syrian refugees).
Sorry for taking it out of context. From each individual perspective - it is unquestionably better to escape from a war torn third world country to a stable first world one.

Of course in this multiagent system, we reach out a situation which is undesired by any of players, except of course of ISIS.

I don't think you can realistically ask a father to sit tight waiting for a barrel bomb to claim his children's lives. Bare in mind 240,000 people were already killed in this civil war.
Depends what you mean by that. In EU we think how to ask him to exactly do that, and are surprised that it does not work at all...
 
  • #5
Islam and Western values simply do not mix. We are literally watching a powder keg get filled to the brim. How many more terrorist incidents will happen before the immigration crisis explodes and ultra nationalists start doing some pretty bad things? Imagine overnight in the US we had a 51st state formed, and this new state needed to fed, sheltered, clothed, and would expect welfare payments for income every month indefinitely.
 
  • #6
Czcibor said:
In the meantime the situation deteriorated:
It is a big crisis at the moment. I was wondering if there was a thread on the subject. I've been reading the news about and the sheer numbers of folks trying to cross the Mediterranean to get to Europe.

Tragic image of drowned Syrian toddler highlights human cost of refugee crisis (graphic image of Aylan Kurdi on the beach)
http://news.yahoo.com/drowned-syria...s-human-cost-of-refugee-crisis-145135288.html

'My children slipped through my hands': father of drowned Syrian boy
http://news.yahoo.com/children-slipped-hands-syrian-father-drowned-boy-141950138.html

Drowned Syrian boys buried in hometown they fled
http://news.yahoo.com/bodies-drowned-syrian-boys-returned-home-burial-080516499.html#

Cameron bows to pressure to take more Syrian refugees
http://news.yahoo.com/uk-accept-thousands-more-refugees-syria-cameron-095452611.html

The western nations were warned against de-stabilizing Iraq and Syria. Daesh coalesced in the prisons in Iraq, then in the void caused by the disruption of the communities left in the wake of the occupation of Iraq and chaos in Syria. That's a separate topic.

What to do for folks wanting to escape Daesh and hostile regimes? Aylan's father wanted safety and security, and better lives for his wife and two sons. Now he buries them in Kobane, and will stay nearby them.
 
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  • #7
Pretty crazy what is going on now. Some thousands of migrants are walking 155 miles to Austria. I think more should be done, their plight is verified.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/04/europe/migrant-crisis-country-by-country/index.html

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  • #8
gravenewworld said:
Islam and Western values simply do not mix. .
These people are not "Islam". These are refugees who (most of them, not all) happen to be muslims. It seems that every group of people on Earth get to be individuals apart from muslims who have this one label that tells everything one needs to know about them. They can't be individuals like everyone else. They're just muslims.

gravenewworld said:
How many more terrorist incidents will happen before the immigration crisis explodes
We're speaking about refugees escaping a civil war and the first thing that came to your mind is 'terrorists'. I can't think of a better definition of prejudice mate! Please let that sink in for a while.

It's ironic that Aylan's family is actually from Kobane that was besieged by ISIS for months. These people are literally escaping from terrorists just to be called terrorists themselves. No evidence is needed of course.
 
  • #9
gravenewworld said:
Islam and Western values simply do not mix.
Based on the many Muslim and Western friends and colleagues, I would have to disagree. I occasionally visit a local mosque with a good friend, and I find the folks there share Western values, especially when it comes to hard work, reverence for humanity and human life, and community involvement.
 
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  • #10
HossamCFD said:
These people are not "Islam". These are refugees who (most of them, not all) happen to be muslims. It seems that every group of people on Earth get to be individuals apart from muslims who have this one label that tells everything one needs to know about them. They can't be individuals like everyone else. They're just muslims.We're speaking about refugees escaping a civil war and the first thing that came to your mind is 'terrorists'. I can't think of a better definition of prejudice mate! Please let that sink in for a while.

It's ironic that Aylan's family is actually from Kobane that was besieged by ISIS for months. These people are literally escaping from terrorists just to be called terrorists themselves. No evidence is needed of course.

The only person who has used the word 'terrorist' to drscribe the refugees in any of their posts was you. I'm simply saying that terrorist events will probably happen and then blame will be placed on people like the refugees by ultra nationalists.
Immigration has always raised tensions. Not just in Germany or Hungary or France but everywhere. No one likes an influx of people who are not like them. Even the US resented the Eastern Europeans, the Irish, Italians, etc., who came here in the 19th century and 20th.

Reasonable policies to control immigration are necessary everywhere. Their goal should not be to stop it since that is impossible but to manage it. I reckon' every country in the world at least has the right to know exactly who they're letting into their borders, right now itbis a free for all that is going to foment tension with natives.

Anyone that opposes to having their own country overrun and transformed overnight is painted as 'racist', but count the number of people wealthy ME states are letting in.
 
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  • #11
Astronuc said:
Based on the many Muslim and Western friends and colleagues, I would have to disagree. I occasionally visit a local mosque with a good friend, and I find the folks there share Western values, especially when it comes to hard work, reverence for humanity and human life, and community involvement.

I definitely agree, on the other hand and it seems like there is always a blasted other hand, the refugees are coming from an area of the world where terrorists have come from in the past. They are also coming with very little or no security screening. ISIS has declared that they will kill Americans in America and we have to be wary of that. Yes the refugees are people yet there is currently no method in existence to determine which person is a potential terrorist.

If ISIS wanted a method of moving a large number of terrorists into Europe and the USA undetected, I can't think of a better way than to mix that large number in with a massive number of refugees. It is sad to even think of it, but that is what could happen. Since 911 just the possibility of any terrorist movement must be eliminated.

Refugees have been traveling north through Italy without so much as a baggage check.

Once in Germany, Muhammad visited the police, asked for asylum, and was registered as a refugee. He now has temporary papers and a room in a refugee center in Berlin. While Italy’s lax restrictions served his purpose, he fears that others will exploit it for more nefarious purposes.

“Any ISIS terrorist could have entered Italy and traveled further into Europe without any problem,” he said. “ISIS members can take their guns and hand grenades with them, because the Italians even never checked any of the luggage.”
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/04/13/italy-islamic-state-syria-refugees/
 
  • #12
Astronuc said:
Based on the many Muslim and Western friends and colleagues, I would have to disagree. I occasionally visit a local mosque with a good friend, and I find the folks there share Western values, especially when it comes to hard work, reverence for humanity and human life, and community involvement.

Astronuc said:
Based on the many Muslim and Western friends and colleagues, I would have to disagree. I occasionally visit a local mosque with a good friend, and I find the folks there share Western values, especially when it comes to hard work, reverence for humanity and human life, and community involvement.

In the US Muslim intergration seems to work, we have a long history here of immigration and a civil rights movement for minorities, but Europe is a completely different story. We already saw in 2005 in France what happened with disenfranchised Muslim youth. In fact, he NYT had apiece on this exact topic a little while back on how integration just isn't working in a country like France:

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/02/11/french-muslims-never-fully-at-home

Wearing a headscarf, hijab, and niqab is not tolerated in France, and that alone has ruffled a lot of feathers. It is like trying to mix oil and water. If the hijab is central to your beliefs, yet you put someone who wears a hijab in a society that absolutely will not tolerate it, well then you start to have problems.
 
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  • #13
gravenewworld said:
Islam and Western values simply do not mix.
Don't mix - it would be to far reaching conclusion - judging from cases where it mixed like Tunisia, Turkey or Kurdistan. However it does not mix well.

We are literally watching a powder keg get filled to the brim. How many more terrorist incidents will happen before the immigration crisis explodes and ultra nationalists start doing some pretty bad things? Imagine overnight in the US we had a 51st state formed, and this new state needed to fed, sheltered, clothed, and would expect welfare payments for income every month indefinitely.
This is unfortunately more or less correct.

Hossam, Astronuc:
Actually, there is one awkward question - were they in immediate threat at this moment? Because Kurds with a help of Western airstrikes had Kobane defended. Thus, I would not consider them as political refugees, but as economical ones, as their home town was in ruins but more or less safe.

HossamCFD said:
These people are not "Islam". These are refugees who (most of them, not all) happen to be muslims. It seems that every group of people on Earth get to be individuals apart from muslims who have this one label that tells everything one needs to know about them. They can't be individuals like everyone else. They're just muslims.
We're speaking about refugees escaping a civil war and the first thing that came to your mind is 'terrorists'. I can't think of a better definition of prejudice mate! Please let that sink in for a while.
As you probably know insurance companies demand higher premiums from young males. Does it mean that they are prejudiced - sexists and ageist? Or maybe they behave highly rational facing increased risk? Because for me it seems quite rational to mark being Muslims as a risk factor.
 
  • #14
The online edition of most popular daily Polish newspaper (it has left wing bent, but in fiscally responsible way) blocked comments on articles concerning refugees/immigrants, complaining about flood of racist comments. Not bad result for a newspaper where in comments it was usual to mock the Church or nationalist parties. Solution III is coming...
(the highest irony is that in Poland we practically have no refugees)
Greg Bernhardt said:
Pretty crazy what is going on now. Some thousands of migrants are walking 155 miles to Austria. I think more should be done, their plight is verified.

It seems that Refugees/Migrants won the battle of Budapest and are allowed to go to Austria and Germany.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/europeans-risk-becoming-minority-in-own-continent-hungarys-pm-says-as-migrants-stranded-on-train/article26224299/

Anyway, I think that was a first documented case of Orban trying to do a favour for the West (sure, in his specific way, but still it counts). He tried to block them, but could have just let slip them through his country.
 
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  • #15
Hungary bus fleet delivers 4,000 migrants to Austria welcome
http://news.yahoo.com/hungarian-bus-fleet-delivers-migrants-austria-welcome-062852405.html

BUDAPEST, Hungary (AP) — Thousands of exhausted, elated migrants reached their dream destinations of Germany and Austria on Saturday, completing epic journeys by boat, bus, train and foot to escape war and poverty.
 
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  • #16
gravenewworld said:
I'm simply saying that terrorist events will probably happen and then blame will be placed on people like the refugees by ultra nationalists.
I misunderstood you there. I apologise.
gravenewworld said:
but count the number of people wealthy ME states are letting in.
The rich gulf states haven't taken any, which is of course reprehensible. I think most people would hold the EU to a higher standard regarding human rights.
 
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  • #17
Czcibor said:
Actually, there is one awkward question - were they in immediate threat at this moment?
I don't know the answer to this, but if there is not ready access to food, water and shelter, or if there is a potential threat of a group like Daesh, then I would expect a man or woman would wish to find a more safe and secure environment for their family and/or each other. Looking at images of Kobane, it seems rather bleak there. If I was Abdullah Kurdi, I probably would have done the same thing - try to take my wife and children to safety. Other migrants/refugees may have fled imminent danger, but I don't know, since I'm not there to assess the situation of each person. Clearly Daesh and other militant groups, including the Syrian army, put folks at risk.
 
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  • #18
Astronuc said:
Based on the many Muslim and Western friends and colleagues, I would have to disagree. I occasionally visit a local mosque with a good friend, and I find the folks there share Western values, especially when it comes to hard work, reverence for humanity and human life, and community involvement.

There's nothing "Muslim" about these values. These are just ordinary HUMAN values that we all have innately in us, regardless of where we were born. If you want to define "Muslim" values, then you should look at the values a person has only because they are a Muslim. These include the subjugation of Women, hatred and violence towards the Jews, a belief in martyrdom and religion by the sword, etc... no, not all Muslims believe these things, but if you do believe them, there's an extremely good chance it's because you're a Muslim.

There is a huge cultural disconnect between Western society and that of the middle east, and I don't believe they will ever coexist peacefully, so long as people's minds are dominated by their religion. The presence of millions of more Muslims in the EU will increase occurrences of violence, terrorism, and conflict which is directly connected to religion.

As others have pointed out, why is it the EUs responsibility to deal with this mess? Where are their Muslim brothers in the surrounding regions to help out?
 
  • #19
dipole said:
As others have pointed out, why is it the EUs responsibility to deal with this mess? Where are their Muslim brothers in the surrounding regions to help out?

this is the elephant in the room; and EU leaders are afraid to say it.

The gulf states have enormous wealth and enormous land resources: and are doing nothing to help.
We need to take a long hard look at the people that are managing to get to Europe. Many have paid people smugglers thousands of pounds. Helping people that have the money to escape merely leaves the problem behind for those without money to escape. Emptying an entire region due to war does not solve the problem - it moves it. Europe has got a very very long bloody history. Even those of use not very old (I'm 44) can remember genocides in our borders. The disaster waiting to happen is for another charismatic politician with a popular solution; only this time there may be a pan-European consensus.
I'm very aware that Europe, and especially the EU which has failed spectacularly - is on the brink of something very very VERY dangerous here.
 
  • #20
dipole said:
There's nothing "Muslim" about these values. These are just ordinary HUMAN values that we all have innately in us, regardless of where we were born.
Exactly. Common values, shared among us.
 
  • #21
Astronuc said:
Exactly. Common values, shared among us.
Nice platitude, but not real life.

People do not share such common values, and they are certanly not innate.

Many Muslims believe apostates should be killed; homosexuals should be killed; women are worth inherently less than men.

It took many "western" nations centuries to find these "innate values" (when did blacks get the vote in the USA? when was homosexuality legalised in the UK? when was rape inside marriage criminalised...)

yes, nice platitude.
 
  • #22
William White said:
We need to take a long hard look at the people that are managing to get to Europe. Many have paid people smugglers thousands of pounds. Helping people that have the money to escape merely leaves the problem behind for those without money to escape. Emptying an entire region due to war does not solve the problem - it moves it. Europe has got a very very long bloody history. Even those of use not very old (I'm 44) can remember genocides in our borders. The disaster waiting to happen is for another charismatic politician with a popular solution; only this time there may be a pan-European consensus.

I'm very aware that Europe, and especially the EU which has failed spectacularly - is on the brink of something very very VERY dangerous here.

With elites of core countries in denial phase... Do you think that well... Imperium Europeanum would be so bad solution comparing to continent plunging in chaos?
 
  • #23
i have no idea what you are trying to say
 
  • #25
meanwhile in Saudi Arabia

*crickets*
 
  • #26
Disgusting neighbors. Why Muslims still flocking to Mecca and Medina every year for pilgrimage if they see that the Arabs do not care about their 'brothers' ?

Migrant crisis: Why Syrians do not flee to Gulf states - BBC News
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34132308

The refugees should leave their culture and religions behind if they want to integrate in EU. The way of Islam is not suitable and too rigid for Europeans.
 
  • #27
But Islam is a religion of peace and love! surely 1/4 of the world's population spread along an enormous arc from west Africa to south east asia - much of it blessed with enormous wealth, nearly all of it blessed with wide open spaces where people could live minding their own business, would welcome their brothers and sisters with open arms?
 
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  • #28
Pope: Vatican will shelter 2 families fleeing war, hunger
http://news.yahoo.com/pope-vatican-shelter-2-families-fleeing-war-hunger-113629489.html
"May every parish, every religious community, every monastery, every sanctuary in Europe host a family, starting with my diocese of Rome," Francis said. He also asked bishops throughout Europe to have their dioceses take up his call to "express the Gospel in concrete terms and take in a family of refugees."
 
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  • #29
dont it warm the cockles of yer heart

aint religion wonderful
 
  • #30
microMRI said:
Why Muslims still flocking to Mecca and Medina every year for pilgrimage if they see that the Arabs do not care about their 'brothers' ?
Performing pilgrimage is a religious duty for muslims. It has nothing to do with Arabic solidarity or anything of the sort. Most muslims in the world aren't Arabs anyway.

microMRI said:
Disgusting neighbors.

William White said:
But Islam is a religion of peace and love! surely 1/4 of the world's population spread along an enormous arc from west Africa to south east asia would welcome their brothers and sisters with open arms?
Everyone seems to conveniently forget about the fact that Syria's muslim/arabic neighbours are hosting around 3.8 Million refugees. Yes the gulf states took none, a fact that is hardly surprising given their record on human rights, but it's also worth noting that Lebanon, a country with a population of 4.4 Million people, is hosting roughly 10 times more Syrian refugees than the entire European continent.
 
  • #32
HossamCFD said:
Performing pilgrimage is a religious duty for muslims. It has nothing to do with Arabic solidarity or anything of the sort. Most muslims in the world aren't Arabs anyway.

so is looking after the poor, and supposedly not killing each other.

How many muslims have died at the hands of other muslims in the middle east in the past couple of years?Sure, the tiny states of Lebannon are flooded with refugees - who'd a thunk it - them being on the doorstep and all that. The rich arab states should be helping ALL of the refugess as a first safe haven. And doing EVERYTHING they can to end the trouble. But they will not.

People (with the means to do so) are leaving the middle east BECAUSE of islam. Those without the means are stuck in refugee camps whilst rich muslims look on and yawn.
 
  • #33
William White said:
People are leaving the middle east BECAUSE of islam
This needs to be narrowed much further and the situation is infinitely more complicated than this dangerously simplistic statement.
 
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  • #34
Greg Bernhardt said:
This needs to be qualified further and the situation is infinitely more complicated than this simplistic statement.

no it doesn't

warring islamic factions are tearing the place apart, as they have been doing for centuries, and as they will continue to do so.

people are leaving because of it; and many want to go to Europe to escape the stinking culture they are hoping to leave behind.

dont make something that is infinitely simple infinitely complicated.

if muslims stopped killing each other the problem would go away.
 
  • #35
William White said:
warring islamic factions are tearing the place apart, as they have been doing for centuries, and as they will continue to do so.
Yeah and the Nazi's were killing Jews. End of story right? WW2 could be written in a one statement book right? The people fleeing are Muslim. They are not fleeing Islam. They are fleeing those who are using Islam as a tool for reasons that are much more basic human nature than religious belief.
 

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