What Determines the Distance for Matter-Antimatter Annihilation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the specifics of matter-antimatter annihilation, particularly the distance required for such annihilation to occur. Participants explore theoretical aspects, including quantum mechanics, wave functions, and the role of forces like the strong force in annihilation events.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the distance for annihilation is not a straightforward concept due to the overlap of wave functions, which must be considered in quantum mechanics.
  • There is a question regarding the amount of overlap necessary for annihilation to be guaranteed, with some participants indicating that annihilation does not necessarily take time and either occurs or does not occur.
  • Protonium is mentioned as a case where annihilation can be questioned, with discussions on the distance over which the strong force dominates and its implications for annihilation events.
  • Some participants introduce the concept of cross sections in high energy physics as a way to understand transition probabilities, suggesting it may be a more practical approach than focusing solely on wave function overlap.
  • Concerns are raised about the implications of orbital angular momentum on the probability of annihilation, with some arguing that particles with nonzero angular momentum cannot overlap and thus cannot annihilate.
  • There is a discussion on the nature of measurements and how they relate to the concept of orbital angular momentum, with some participants questioning the frequency of annihilation processes involving higher order effects.
  • Others note that in scattering problems, the notion of distance is not invariant, complicating the understanding of a 'universal distance' for annihilation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the specifics of the distance required for annihilation, with multiple competing views on the role of wave functions, angular momentum, and the applicability of scattering cross sections.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of distance in quantum mechanics, the unresolved nature of how wave functions interact, and the complexities introduced by orbital angular momentum.

Funestis
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Hello all. I had some questions on some of the specifics of matter-antimatter annihilation. I've tried looking this up but haven't had much success. If you guys know of any textbooks or journal articles that dig deep into the mechanics I'd be grateful if you'd post them.

Anyway, my basic question is does anyone know how close a particle and antiparticle have to be to one another for annihilation to occur? Does that distance depend on the specific particles involved? I'm assuming that there's some probabilities involved as well (e.g. if a particle/antiparticle pair are x meters apart they have a 10% chance of annihilation, if they are x - y meters apart they have a 50% chance of annihilation, etc.) but I'm uncertain. Any info you guys have would be much appreciated.

~thanks
 
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Funestis said:
Anyway, my basic question is does anyone know how close a particle and antiparticle have to be to one another for annihilation to occur?
So close that quantum mechanics makes that concept meaningless. Their waves functions have to overlap.
 
mfb said:
So close that quantum mechanics makes that concept meaningless. Their waves functions have to overlap.

I figured that much, but how much overlap is there? If there's only a slight amount of overlap is annihilation absolutely guaranteed? What about protonium - I have no idea what the distance is which the proton and antiproton orbit one another, but given that a protonium atom can exist for a short time is it reasonable to ask how long annihilation takes? As I understand it, proton-antiproton annihilation occurs via the strong force, so is it a valid assumption then to say that an upper bound on the distance between particles before an annihilation event could occur would be the distance over which the strong force dominates (1 femtometer)? What about electron-positron annihilation?
 
does anyone know how close a particle and antiparticle have to be to one another for annihilation to occur
In high energy physics we have the notion of cross section for a given process such as ##\ \ e^+e^-\rightarrow X\ \ ## to help in imagining the transition probability as a kind of collision. Much better than trying to get your head around overlapping wave functions. See e.g. particle data group
 
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Funestis said:
I figured that much, but how much overlap is there?

In some formulae for quark-antiquark aniquilation inside a meson, they use the expresion \Psi(0), which seem to imply that the two quarks must be in the same point. But again, given that both particles are spreaded along the wavefunction, I guess we should integrate across all the possible points.
 
Funestis said:
If there's only a slight amount of overlap is annihilation absolutely guaranteed?
No.
Funestis said:
but given that a protonium atom can exist for a short time is it reasonable to ask how long annihilation takes?
It does not take time. In any time frame you consider, it either happens or does not happen (to a very good approximation, as protons are not elementary particles).
Funestis said:
As I understand it, proton-antiproton annihilation occurs via the strong force, so is it a valid assumption then to say that an upper bound on the distance between particles before an annihilation event could occur would be the distance over which the strong force dominates (1 femtometer)?
No, the wave function can be spread out much more, so "distance" becomes meaningless earlier.
 
The probability of wave functions of two particles overlapping is exactly zero whenever they possesses a nonzero orbital momentum relative to each other.

Is annihilation of particles with orbital angular momentum completely and unconditionally impossible, i. e. particles always have to reach a state with zero angular momentum separately, before they can annihilate?
 
snorkack said:
The probability of wave functions of two particles overlapping is exactly zero whenever they possesses a nonzero orbital momentum relative to each other.

Why is that?
 
Imagine a measurement of both positions at the same time. If the two particles are at the same place, no matter what their (not well-defined) velocity is, how can they have orbital angular momentum?
I'm sure there is some higher order effect taking this orbital angular momentum with a virtual photon or whatever, but that doesn't look like a frequent process. States with orbital angular momentum are not the ground state, they can decay quickly.
 
  • #10
well, in electromagnetic transitions in the hydrogen atom of course the orbitals are orthogonal, but we do not project a wavefunction over the other, we have also a interaction factor, the photon field in this case, between both.
 
  • #11
For phenomenological descriptions, this is a scattering problem and in general characterised by a scattering cross-section, which is a Lorentz invariant quantity. The notion of distance is not as useful, since it is not invariant, so there is no 'universal distance' of scattering. I think any decent particle physics textbook contains this kind of information.
 

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