What equations are needed for calculating Keplerian orbital mechanics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the equations and concepts related to Keplerian orbital mechanics, particularly focusing on the calculations of elliptical orbits of planets. Participants explore the accuracy of these equations, the influence of perturbations from other celestial bodies, and the limitations of Kepler's laws in describing planetary motion.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a set of equations for calculating orbital parameters, including eccentric anomaly and true anomaly, and seeks verification of their correctness.
  • Another participant asserts that while the presented equations are mostly correct, the expression for eccentric anomaly should be based on Kepler's equation, which does not have a simple solution.
  • Several participants emphasize that Kepler's laws are only approximate and that Newton's laws, along with general relativity, provide a more accurate description of planetary motion.
  • One participant suggests that the inaccuracies in Kepler's laws arise from the gravitational perturbations caused by other bodies in the solar system, implying that a single-planet system would yield predictable results.
  • Another participant notes that the assumption of negligible mass for planets compared to the Sun is reasonable for inner planets but less so for gas giants, highlighting the significant effects of perturbations over time.
  • General relativity is mentioned as a necessary correction to Newtonian mechanics, particularly in the context of Mercury's orbit.
  • There is a discussion about the limitations of Kepler's laws, with some participants pointing out that they do not account for the mass of the orbiting body in their third law.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that Kepler's laws are approximations and that Newtonian mechanics and general relativity provide better models. However, there is no consensus on the extent of the inaccuracies or the implications of perturbations from other celestial bodies.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the equations presented may depend on specific assumptions about the system, such as the mass of the planets and the presence of other bodies, which can significantly affect the accuracy of the calculations.

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I have some data about the elliptical orbits of the planets. I have a,e,i,ML,LP,N @ for a specific Julian Century, J2000. I need an equation check:

w = LP - N
EA = MA + e * sin(MA) * (1 + e * cos(MA))
x = a * (cos(EA) - e)
y = a * sin(EA) * (1 - e^2)^0.5
r = (x^2 + y^2)^0.5
v = atan2(y , x)

where

a - Semi-Major Axis
e - Eccentricity
i - Inclination
ML - Mean Anomaly
LP - Longitude of the Perihelion
N - Longitude of the Ascending Node
w - Argument of the Perihelion
EA -= Eccentric Anomaly
r - Radius of the Sun to the Planet
v - True Anomaly
 
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All of these equations are correct except for the expression for eccentric anomaly. Kepler's equation is

M=E-e\sin E

The inverse function, E=f(M), does not have a solution in the elementary functions. Newton's method works quite well for small eccentricities. All of the planets have small eccentricities.

Note well: The planets do not follow Keplerian orbits. Kepler's laws are approximately correct. They are not exact.
 
Is there a solar system elliptical orbital program that incorporates all the above terminology into one computer program that gives the correct orientation of the angles not just the correct placement of the planets and moons? Maybe on a main frame?
 
One more time: Kepler's laws are only approximately correct. Newton's laws provide a better description of what is going on. General relativity is even better.

If you want an accurate picture of how the planets move over time you will not use Kepler's laws.
 
I do not disagree, but in an effort to clarify . . .

It is my understanding that the only reason Kepler's laws do not produce exact results is due to the presence of other bodies and the perturbations they cause. IOW a solar system with one planet and nothing else would be perfectly predictable. (Also ignoring solar wind and the "pressure" caused by solar radiation.)

Certainly the perturbation effects are quite significant . . .
 
spacester said:
I do not disagree, but in an effort to clarify . . .

It is my understanding that the only reason Kepler's laws do not produce exact results is due to the presence of other bodies and the perturbations they cause. IOW a solar system with one planet and nothing else would be perfectly predictable. (Also ignoring solar wind and the "pressure" caused by solar radiation.)

Certainly the perturbation effects are quite significant . . .
Kepler's laws implicitly assume the planets have negligible mass compared to that of the Sun. While this is a reasonably good assumption for the inner planets, it is not all that reasonable for the gas giants.

Those perturbations are very significant, especially over the long haul. The solar system is a chaotic system.

Finally, don't forget about general relativity. One of the reasons it was accepted fairly quickly was because it solved a known problem with Newtonian mechanics, Mercury's anomalistic precession.
 
Don't forget, Einstein corrected kepler's law when he solved the orbit of mercury, which had been a mystery for many years - as D H noted. I don't see an issue here.
 
Newton corrected Kepler's laws, too. Kepler's first two laws are approximations that ignore the perturbations of other planets. Kepler's third law, P^2 \propto a^3[/itex] is an approximation that ignores the mass of the orbiting body.
 

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