What happens to energy of the stars?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the fate of energy produced by stars in the context of dark matter and the preservation of energy. Participants explore the implications of energy emitted by stars, including light and other forms, and question the conceptual understanding of this energy's existence over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that there should be an equivalent of about 24,000 solar masses of energy within the galaxy that is not visible, based on assumptions about the energy output of stars.
  • Another participant argues that 24,000 solar masses is negligible compared to the matter density required to explain dark matter observations.
  • A participant questions what happens to the energy that has been burned or spent by stars over time, suggesting that it should still exist in some form.
  • It is mentioned that photons and electromagnetic waves continue to travel indefinitely unless they interact with matter, while stars also release energy in forms like neutrinos, which interact minimally.
  • One participant humorously notes that some of the energy has caused sunburns, indicating a light-hearted take on the topic.
  • A later reply defends the initial approximation of energy calculations, suggesting it is sufficient for the discussion at hand and reiterates that the energy spreads out as it moves away from its source.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance of the calculated energy in relation to dark matter and the conceptual understanding of energy's fate, indicating that multiple competing views remain without consensus.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the approximations made in calculations and the challenges in defining concepts such as "leaving" the galaxy, which may affect the discussion's conclusions.

Whitefire
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Several days ago I started thinking about the mystery of dark matter (yup, it was after LIGO discovery, and we all do it from time to time, right?). Then I came up with a strange conclusion that within our galaxy, there should be an equivalent of about 24 000 stars that we just cannot see--in form of energy (light, heat).

Okay, just bear with me, please.

I assumed that our Sun burns about 1.5 mass of the Earth in 100 000 years (http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sun.html#consume)

I assumed 500 billion stars in Milky Way, all, on average, burning the same amount of energy (huuge approximation, I'm aware).

I also assumed, that even if all this energy was changed into light, in 100 000 years it wouldn't have the time to really leave the galaxy (which is also wrong, and by a lot, but it is also hard to define what it means to "leave" the galaxy so I let it be).

Well, I then did some calculations and viola, 24000 sun masses are there. Here. What a nice additional source of gravity (I understand that photons can, in themselves, be a source of gravity).

Now it is nowhere near the mass necessary to explain dark matter, but it made me wonder:

Are my assumptions even conceptually correct?

And, given that stars shine, and burn, and explode, an do whatever else it is they do, and yet the total energy should be preserved, what really happened to all that burned/spent energy since the beginning of time (or, say, last 13 billion years?) It should be still out there, right? As WHAT?

Thanks for answers.
 
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24000 solar masses extra in the galaxy is essentially nothing in comparison to the matter density required to explain the dark matter observations.
 
Whitefire said:
And, given that stars shine, and burn, and explode, an do whatever else it is they do, and yet the total energy should be preserved, what really happened to all that burned/spent energy since the beginning of time (or, say, last 13 billion years?) It should be still out there, right? As WHAT?
Photons, or electromagnetic waves if you prefer, just keep on going forever unless they happen to interact with some matter which absorbs them.
Stars also release energy in other forms such as neutrinos and those don't interact very much at all.
 
Whitefire said:
... what really happened to all that burned/spent energy since the beginning of time
Well, among other things, a tiny amount of it has caused a lot of sunburns :smile:
 
"viola"? What does a musical instrument have to do with this?
 
Whitefire said:
Several days ago I started thinking about the mystery of dark matter (yup, it was after LIGO discovery, and we all do it from time to time, right?). Then I came up with a strange conclusion that within our galaxy, there should be an equivalent of about 24 000 stars that we just cannot see--in form of energy (light, heat).

Okay, just bear with me, please.

I assumed that our Sun burns about 1.5 mass of the Earth in 100 000 years (http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/qa_sun.html#consume)

I assumed 500 billion stars in Milky Way, all, on average, burning the same amount of energy (huuge approximation, I'm aware).
It's not that bad an approximation... It has the right number of digits. That's good enough for many problems, including this one. You conclude that
24000 sun masses are there... Now it is nowhere near the mass necessary to explain dark matter
24,000 against 500 billion is about one part in ten million so your conclusion looks good.

As for where this energy goes? It just spreads out as it moves away from its source, and it keeps on going.
 

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