What if the Earth (and the Universe) were 2d?

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    2d Earth Universe
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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the implications of a two-dimensional universe, particularly focusing on the nature of Newtonian gravitation in a 2+1 dimensional framework. Participants consider theoretical modifications to Poisson's equation and the potential for applying general relativity principles in this context.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a model for gravitational fields in a flat 2D universe, suggesting that the gravitational field could be represented as \(\mathbf{g} = - (GM/r) \mathbf{e}_r\) for \(r > R\).
  • Another participant questions the correctness of this modification of Poisson's equation, noting the lack of criteria to definitively label approaches as "correct" or "incorrect."
  • A different viewpoint suggests that it might be possible to derive the 2+1 dimensional scenario from general relativity and then transition to Newtonian limits, although uncertainty remains about the feasibility of this approach.
  • One participant introduces the idea of considering a 3D universe with parallel cylinders to explore the implications of symmetry in a 2D context.
  • References to literature, such as the book "Flatland" and various research articles, are made to provide additional context or insights into the discussion.
  • Humorous remarks about the implications of a 2D universe are shared, reflecting on societal attitudes towards flat Earth theories.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of the proposed gravitational model and the potential for applying general relativity in a 2D universe. No consensus is reached, and multiple competing ideas remain present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the limitations of their models, including the absence of a true 2D universe for comparison and the speculative nature of their arguments regarding the behavior of physics in such a framework.

etotheipi
Well, okay, I should say: what does Newtonian gravitation look like in a ##2+1## dimensional Newtonian universe? Consider a flat Earth, i.e. a region ##\mathcal{E} = \{ (x,y): x^2 + y^2 \leq R \}## with mass density ##\rho##, then for ##r > R## a natural guess for the gravitational field seem like it might be$$\begin{align*}

\mathbf{g} &= - \frac{GM}{r} \mathbf{e}_r \\

\implies 2\pi GM&= - 2\pi rg_r = \int_0^{2\pi} -r g_r d\varphi = -\int_0^{2\pi} [r g_r \cos^2{\varphi} + rg_r \sin^2{\varphi}] d\varphi

\end{align*}$$where ##\mathbf{X}(\varphi) = (r\cos{\varphi}, r\sin{\varphi})## is a parameterisation of ##\partial \Omega##; then by Green's theorem$$2\pi G \int_{\Omega} \rho dS = 2\pi GM = - \oint_{\partial \Omega} g_1 dy - g_2 dx = - \int_{\Omega} \partial_i g_i dS= - \int_{\Omega} \nabla \cdot \mathbf{g} dS$$which leads to the identification $$\nabla \cdot \mathbf{g} = - 2\pi G\rho \implies \nabla^2 \phi = 2 \pi G \rho$$with a potential ##\phi(r) - \phi(r_0) = GM \ln{(r/r_0)}##. The equations of motion can be derived pretty easily in principle from that.

But I was wondering if this is the correct modification of Poisson's equation? In other words, is the assumption that ##\mathbf{g} = - (GM/r) \mathbf{e}_r## correct for a flat Earth in a 2d universe?
 
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etotheipi said:
But I was wondering if this is the correct modification of Poisson's equation? In other words, is the assumption that g=−(GM/r)er correct for a flat Earth in a 2d universe?
It is a reasonable approach. I don’t know that there is any criteria you could use to identify any reasonable criteria as “correct” or “incorrect”
 
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Dale said:
I don’t know that there is any criteria you could use to identify any reasonable criteria as “correct” or “incorrect”

That's a really good point! I was thinking that maybe it's possible in principle to work it out in a 2+1 dimensional universe with GR theory, and then take the Newtonian limit; but I don't know nearly enough about GR to know if that's possible, or just nonsense.
 
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There should be more flattery in a 2D universe...(I couldn't help myself)
 
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hutchphd said:
There should be more flattery in a 2D universe...(I couldn't help myself)
But then the conclusion is that flattery will get you nowhere. :smile:
 
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etotheipi said:
That's a really good point! I was thinking that maybe it's possible in principle to work it out in a 2+1 dimensional universe with GR theory, and then take the Newtonian limit; but I don't know nearly enough about GR to know if that's possible, or just nonsense.
I'm not sure if it's possible or not, but I think that doesn't fix the underlying problem - you don't have a 2d universe to which you can compare your model's predictions. So I think that you can come up with plausibility arguments why physics "ought to be" this way or that way, but that's it.

A possible approach would be to consider a 3d universe containing only parallel cylinders (or whatever cross-section). Physics would have to be independent of the direction parallel to the cylinders by symmetry. See what that yields?
 
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Maybe the book Flatland by Abbott gives a hint?
 
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etotheipi said:
What if the Earth (and the universe) were 2d?
Then the flat Earth society people would be insufferably smug. There'd be no living with them.
 
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Movies would be shown on a 1D screen.
 
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