What Is Logical To Trade Across Interstellar Distances?

[Bab5space]

So in a setting with interstellar travel I was thinking about interstellar trade.

I know the method of travel dicates what is traded, so I will elaborate below:

Constant Acceleration: Refueling is virtually not a concern.

Stargates: Ships can accelerate for months to reach just bellow lightspeed but do not have to for known and explored systems. They just fly to a nearby moon with a stargate on the surface and fly out at another one planted on a moon in a another system. The gates were planted 2000 years prior. So they have been plying interstellar space and planting gates for the last 2000 years. Stargates must be put on planets or moons because of the waste heat they generate, which is more than a spaceship can handle.

EDIT: Stargates are usually put on airless moons, forcing vessels to fly to any planet with atmosphere.

Stargates are seldom ever put on Earth-like worlds, since if they malfunction or explode the effect is like a Tsar bomb... multiplied a millonfold.THE MAIN QUESTION: What to trade? Sounds obvious but it really is not.

The basic needs for life are food, clothing and shelter, for humanoids. Any civilization on an Earth world you trade with will have that already.

So what else can you trade? Luxuries. Slaves. Technology they do not already have.

Alternately you can sell stuff they already have but the the strategy of buying low and selling high may not work, since it is arguably cheaper for native to buy homegrown stuff than buy stuff that counts or includes ship maintenence fees for crossing interstellar distances.

Selling crops only goes far initially. Once you sell seeds the first time to an Earth world the natives will just homegrow it and won't require you to ship it anymore.
Any other ideas for what would logically be shipped? Because I am fresh out of ideas.

 

[berkeman]

Aw, heck. When I read your thread title, I thought you were asking for creative ideas for what could be traded between civilizations who cannot ever meet in person due to interstellar distances, but could still establish a reasonable-delay EM communication system. I had some interesting thoughts, but I guess there's no reason to share them now. Sigh...

 

[Bab5space]

Aw, heck. When I read your thread title, I thought you were asking for creative ideas for what could be traded between civilizations who cannot ever meet in person due to interstellar distances, but could still establish a reasonable-delay EM communication system. I had some interesting thoughts, but I guess there's no reason to share them now. Sigh...

Not sure if serious... but I can answer that.Information or nothing at all.Sending EM wave information LY away and keeping it intact enough to still be useable is a feat we have yet to manage.

And if we did... know what else we could do?

LY range laser cannons.

Have a nice day!

 

[TeethWhitener]

Paul Krugman wrote an article a long time ago on the implications of time dilation on interest rates:
https://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf
Abstract:
This article extends interplanetary trade theory to an interstellar setting. It is chiefly concerned with the following question: how should interest charges on goods in transit be computed when the goods travel at close to the speed of light? This is a problem because the time taken in transit will appear less to an observer traveling with the goods than to a stationary observer. A solution is derived from economic theory, and two useless but true theorems are proved.

Apparently others have extended the ideas to arbitrary spacetimes.

 

[Bab5space]

Paul Krugman wrote an article a long time ago on the implications of time dilation on interest rates:
https://www.princeton.edu/~pkrugman/interstellar.pdf
Abstract:
This article extends interplanetary trade theory to an interstellar setting. It is chiefly concerned with the following question: how should interest charges on goods in transit be computed when the goods travel at close to the speed of light? This is a problem because the time taken in transit will appear less to an observer traveling with the goods than to a stationary observer. A solution is derived from economic theory, and two useless but true theorems are proved.

Apparently others have extended the ideas to arbitrary spacetimes.

Interesting yet ultimately not was I was looking for, as my scenario manages to skip that via stargates. Even though it took that to place them first.

 

[profbuxton]

As per Frank Herbert's Dune series, melange or spice. Worked for him.

 

[Bab5space]

As per Frank Herbert's Dune series, melange or spice. Worked for him.

It is possible to grow any spice anywhere there is dirt, water, and sunlight and ferilizer

Earth worlds, as common as they are in scifi, make such cross interstellae planting more likely if included.

 

[DaveC426913]

Selling crops only goes far initially. Once you sell seeds the first time to an Earth world the natives will just homegrow it and won't require you to ship it anymore.

Unless you irradiate it first to kill it.
That's how they kept control over the population in Niven's 'Destiny's Road'.

 

[profbuxton]

Actually the premise of Dune was that the "spice" or melange could only be obtained on the planet Dune and it was specifically a product of the giant sand worms which lived on this "waterless" sand covered world. The effect of spice was to alter the human mind to "see" future events and also enabled those taking large amounts to "see" safe paths through interstellar routes and enabled them to "bend" space for "instantaneous travel". It made it the most sought after commodity in that universe. Interesting concept and great series. Well worth a read.

 

[GTOM]

I think common stuff like food only viable for inter solar system trade. (Planet to asteroid belt)
While i have hyperspace magic, i think only really special stuff worth interstellar trade.
Things that really energy or technology demanding, like antimatter, special alloys, maybe rare elements.
Or guilty pleasure probably.
I think holodeck/virtual reality has some limits, because each brain is unique, not everyone finds the sensation really fullfilling.

 

[Bab5space]

I think common stuff like food only viable for inter solar system trade. (Planet to asteroid belt)
While i have hyperspace magic, i think only really special stuff worth interstellar trade.
Things that really energy or technology demanding, like antimatter, special alloys, maybe rare elements.
Or guilty pleasure probably.
I think holodeck/virtual reality has some limits, because each brain is unique, not everyone finds the sensation really fullfilling.

Interesting thoughts.

I think the easier interstellar travel is, the more the mundane stuff might ship.

Hyperdrives do help with that.I am in brainstorming mode so I am not set on the OP idea, it is only an example.

I recently came across a really interesting hyperspace idea that I have adapted and might use.

Basically when you enter hyperspace it in some ways correlates to normal space but does not in others.

Namely if enter hyperspace from low Earth orbit what you will see is:

All celestial bodies are replaced with interstellar spheres of space filled with stars, but the sphere size is equivalent to the planets nearby in real space. Also the spheres are very close to each other, and they all tug on your vessel with the gravitu of the last planet you were closest to when you exited normal space.

To reach normal space you fly over the surface of sphere and watch for swirling vortexes of stars. This only occurs when falling and there are actually celestial bodies in real space nearby. If so, you fall through the vortex opening and see a planet about half a light second way. If you fall yoward the surface of sphere in hyperspace and no real space celestial body is nearb, you will just keep falling through until you either hit a vortex swirl and get obliterated, or fall through an opening safely, or fall far enough that gravity cancels out your fall that has no become an ascent, and you fall back down again.

So the cool thing is that you can orbit spheres in hyperspace and they are really close to each other.

Fortunately they do not move... which is good for you.The amount of interstellar space crammed into sphere varies with their equivalent gravity based on the celestial bodies the are based off multiplied by a hundred.

So for Earth's hypersphere, that means it contains 100 LY of space you can reach just by orbiting Earth's hypersphere and falling through the opening of a vortex.

 

[member 656954]

Ships can accelerate for months to reach just bellow lightspeed

If you have constant acceleration, you don't need months for this.

So they have been plying interstellar space and planting gates for the last 2000 years.

Right, so it's obviously profitable to trade, otherwise nobody would fund new gates.

But who is funding those 'just below lightspeed' ships to travel at a new system? GR means the elapsed time for someone who stays behind - who presumably is paying for the trip - is easily measured in decades. Do you have an economic model to account for this?

since it is arguably cheaper for native to buy homegrown stuff than buy stuff that counts or includes ship maintenence fees for crossing interstellar distances.

That can't be true if your previous points are true.

I am in brainstorming mode so I am not set on the OP idea, it is only an example.

Hmmm, so what's the point exactly? Perhaps post your OP after you've done your brainstorming and we can address specific points that you need help with, rather than bouncing us about with different ideas after each post.

 

[GTOM]

Interesting thoughts.

I think the easier interstellar travel is, the more the mundane stuff might ship.

Hyperdrives do help with that.I am in brainstorming mode so I am not set on the OP idea, it is only an example.

I recently came across a really interesting hyperspace idea that I have adapted and might use.

Basically when you enter hyperspace it in some ways correlates to normal space but does not in others.

Namely if enter hyperspace from low Earth orbit what you will see is:

All celestial bodies are replaced with interstellar spheres of space filled with stars, but the sphere size is equivalent to the planets nearby in real space. Also the spheres are very close to each other, and they all tug on your vessel with the gravitu of the last planet you were closest to when you exited normal space.

To reach normal space you fly over the surface of sphere and watch for swirling vortexes of stars. This only occurs when falling and there are actually celestial bodies in real space nearby. If so, you fall through the vortex opening and see a planet about half a light second way. If you fall yoward the surface of sphere in hyperspace and no real space celestial body is nearb, you will just keep falling through until you either hit a vortex swirl and get obliterated, or fall through an opening safely, or fall far enough that gravity cancels out your fall that has no become an ascent, and you fall back down again.

So the cool thing is that you can orbit spheres in hyperspace and they are really close to each other.

Fortunately they do not move... which is good for you.The amount of interstellar space crammed into sphere varies with their equivalent gravity based on the celestial bodies the are based off multiplied by a hundred.

So for Earth's hypersphere, that means it contains 100 LY of space you can reach just by orbiting Earth's hypersphere and falling through the opening of a vortex.

Interesting one. Personally i rather want to write about the lovecraftian/warhammer40k like nature of hyperspace.
So navigation isn't only about avoid to hit a real world celestial, but to also avoid warp dangers. If gravity wells are fatal to spaceships, maybe i could say, gravity waves can be also dangerous if they interfere with each other.

 

[DaveC426913]

So navigation isn't only about avoid to hit a real world celestial, but to also avoid warp dangers. If gravity wells are fatal to spaceships, maybe i could say, gravity waves can be also dangerous if they interfere with each other.

In Larry's Niven's universe, wandering too near a gravity well in hyperspace gets you eaten.

 

[GTOM]

In Larry's Niven's universe, wandering too near a gravity well in hyperspace gets you eaten.

Eaten by what?

 

[DaveC426913]

Eaten by what?

Hyperspace monsters. They're fast!

I assume he was tying to address the widely-used sci-fi trope about spaceships that mysteriously disappear - never to be seen again - if they use their hyperdrives too near a gravity well.

(I'd say the reason this trope is so widely used is to provide a rationale for in-system hijinks. A story where you're either on-planet or in hyperspace cuts out a lot of good sci-fi story opportunities.)

 

[Bab5space]

Interesting one. Personally i rather want to write about the lovecraftian/warhammer40k like nature of hyperspace.
So navigation isn't only about avoid to hit a real world celestial, but to also avoid warp dangers. If gravity wells are fatal to spaceships, maybe i could say, gravity waves can be also dangerous if they interfere with each other.

Originally the concept was that hyperspace was a sphere with many layers. Circling around the layers could get to locations in real space faster, and with advanced drives one could burrow through layers to reach locations from hyperspace even faster.

In the popular media, scifi is often depicted as cloudy tunnel.

The sphere concept I liked since it put the open space back in hyperspace.

My adaption just made it have have even more space, being a an approximation of real space, just motionless and quite crowded together.

If you have constant acceleration, you don't need months for this.
Right, so it's obviously profitable to trade, otherwise nobody would fund new gates.

But who is funding those 'just below lightspeed' ships to travel at a new system? GR means the elapsed time for someone who stays behind - who presumably is paying for the trip - is easily measured in decades. Do you have an economic model to account for this?

They race in question who made and utlizes the gates and constant acceleration spaceships lives to be just under an millennium.When you live that long, the economy will have to compensate for it.

 

[member 656954]

They race in question who made and utlizes the gates and constant acceleration spaceships lives to be just under an millennium.

When you live that long, the economy will have to compensate for it.

Okay, now I'm confused. Your OP does not refer to this, so where does FTL freight for human purposes come into it.

Also, which economy are you referring to? Human or alien? If it's alien, then it has already compensated, otherwise they wouldn't be out there installing gates.

Paul Krugman wrote an article a long time ago on the implications of time dilation on interest rates:

You dismissed this comment @Bab5space, yet the spaceships that install gates are not FTL, they are sublight, so time dilation does apply. Is that part of the alien economy compensation?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Okay, now I'm confused. Your OP does not refer to this

This is not uncommon with the OP. About a quarter of his started threads have no follow-up, a quarter have one message of his, and of the roughly half where he's willing to post a third message to his own thread, most end with some variation of "that's not what I was thinking of."

It's like the old Chico Marx gag. "Pick a number from one to ten..<very slight pause> No that's not it."

It's impossible to hold a discussion this way,

This thread more than most suffers from that. The answer to "what do you trade" is "whatever is difficult or impossible to make locally". Chile, for example, is an exporter of copper and Chilean wines, and is an importer of fuel and specialized machinery. The thing that most fits into this pattern is "information", followed closely by "people with information" and that depends entirely on how FTL works in this universe. Are there FTL radios? How common or rare is trade? If you get one shipment every 5 years, it's a different thing than one every 5 minutes.

 

[GTOM]

The question is whether it is more viable to have a trade route than produce things locally?

It is possible to turn lead into gold.
On the other hand, one just recently established a colony. Used up most antimatter to get there, it requires long time to build lots of power plants, core world might don't want to share all technology with them. So it can be more viable for core world to import rare materials for exchange of machines and personnel.

I have an analogy for ftl travel. There is a flatworld with a max speed of interaction. In order to exceed it, one has to cut a hole in flatworld, ship falls through hole, drift in air, then ascend and cut another hole. Cut the hole is lots of energy, it is even more energy to transport more mass to bigger distance, but energy requirement grows logarithmically.

 

[member 656954]

On the other hand, one just recently established a colony. Used up most antimatter to get there,

Doesn't this suggest any ship is going to use up their AM to get there? Surely a colony ship will be better equipped than the usual freighter?

So it can be more viable for core world to import rare materials for exchange of machines and personnel.

I think you're suggesting that the colony world exports raw materials that are rare? What that might be is hard to fathom. If they can travel between stars, the core worlds will be able to exploit their local planetary neighborhood and that's going to provide an abundance of materials. They don't need to ship any raw materials, and esp. if the trip is so long that it exhausts their AM fuel.

I have an analogy for ftl travel.

I will admit I don't really understand what you've described, @GTOM, esp. the 'drift in air' aspect. What air would that be?

 

[GTOM]

Doesn't this suggest any ship is going to use up their AM to get there? Surely a colony ship will be better equipped than the usual freighter?
I think you're suggesting that the colony world exports raw materials that are rare? What that might be is hard to fathom. If they can travel between stars, the core worlds will be able to exploit their local planetary neighborhood and that's going to provide an abundance of materials. They don't need to ship any raw materials, and esp. if the trip is so long that it exhausts their AM fuel.
I will admit I don't really understand what you've described, @GTOM, esp. the 'drift in air' aspect. What air would that be?

Not any ship, if a trade ship packs in fuel instead of colony seed. Also they can fly to a place that can't produce colony ships yet, but able to produce or collect antimatter. (I guess that a pulsar or something like that produce enough antimatter.)
Abundance is relative. For medieval people, our energy production would be surely abundant.

Air that is below the flatworld. Drift is meant to imply, that it is possible to travel a big distance without great amount of energy.

 

[Choppy]

One of the problems with a fictional universe, and what tends to happen with science fiction in particular, is that it's easy(ish) to default to the "perfect" model - a scenario where everything works as it should.

In the proposed setting , you have a large number of long-ago established worlds, where presumably by the time of the story, they've established independence and can produce everything they need locally. So even if travel between planets is relatively cheap and easy, it's probably more costly than travel within the planet. So why trade at all?

One solution is to perturb the perfect model. When you have a situation where one planet (or sub-population within a planet) lacks a particular resource you can get to a point where it's cheaper to import everything deriving from that resource than to produce it locally, and this would drive interstellar trade. There's not necessarily going to be one commodity that's traded through the universe. Everything depends on needs and wants, supply and demand. As a world-builder, it's your job to come up with ideas about what might be lacking in any given area/planet.

Your other job is to figure out what can go wrong. Even if somehow resource-wise, everyone has roughly equal access to roughly everything they need, what about:
- wars
- economic sanctions within worlds
- overcrowding/overpopulation
- pressures to maintain hierarchies
- haves taking advantage of the have-nots

 

[Stephen Tashi]

The basic needs for life are food, clothing and shelter, for humanoids. Any civilization on an Earth world you trade with will have that already.

So what else can you trade? Luxuries. Slaves. Technology they do not already have.

There's tourism and emigration assuming an exchange via "virtual realities" doesn't satisfy everybody.

What's the difference between a quill pen and a quill pen used by Napoleon? - or a reconstruction of a quill pen used by Napoleon? Many humans value the provenance of particular material items. What's the difference between a giraffe constructed from information sent from Earth versus a genuine giraffe born on Earth? If aliens have the instincts of antique collectors they will crave the "real McCoy".

 

[jbriggs444]

Many humans value the provenance of particular material items.

See Philip K. Dick, "The Penultimate Truth". The term used there was "historicity" if I recall correctly.

Though it's been a long while. Edit: and it appears I was recalling "The Man in the High Castle".

 

[member 656954]

Not any ship, if a trade ship packs in fuel instead of colony seed.

Ah. But would the colony really need to buy fuel? I guess, sometime down the track when they have goods to trade, they may need to. But wouldn't the freighters carry the trade goods between systems, rather than fuel to a colony. Doing that would undercut their own product.

(I guess that a pulsar or something like that produce enough antimatter.)

LOL, 'or something'. AM is a great sci-fi MacGuffin but you need a lot of handwavium if you go into any detail. Pulsar generation of positrons is possible, but recent analysis suggests not

 

[GTOM]

Ah. But would the colony really need to buy fuel? I guess, sometime down the track when they have goods to trade, they may need to. But wouldn't the freighters carry the trade goods between systems, rather than fuel to a colony. Doing that would undercut their own product.

LOL, 'or something'. AM is a great sci-fi MacGuffin but you need a lot of handwavium if you go into any detail. Pulsar generation of positrons is possible, but recent analysis suggests not

The fuel is needed for the return of the trade ship. Although it is possible, that starports also buy it.

Even if a pulsar don't produce directly antimatter, one can spare the costs of a really large particle accelerator and power plant.

 

[Lren Zvsm]

What would be logical to trade between star systems? Off the top of my head, I would think that any such item would have to be unique to one planet or a very few of them. One such item might be DNA sequences unique to Earth. Since our planet has a huge moon for its size, and doesn't orbit closely to a red dwarf, it may have a more stable climate and less radiation exposure than more typical planets that don't have huge moons and do orbit closely to red suns, getting a lot of radiation in the process.

It could mean that our planet is nearly unique in the morphological diversity of its indigenous life. Although the mutagenic effects of greater radiation might hasten evolution on more typical worlds than Earth, the need to be able to migrate from one planetary region to another in response to the unstable climate of a moon-less world might nonetheless impose selective pressures that could make the creatures' morphologies more alike, even if they remained genetically diverse.