What is the relationship between weight of car, power needed and speed

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the weight of vehicles, the power needed for operation, and the speed at which they travel. Participants explore how these factors influence energy efficiency and time efficiency in various delivery scenarios, including the use of bikes, vans, and cars. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and practical implications for optimizing delivery networks.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that power usage depends on vehicle weight and speed, but factors like terrain and regenerative braking also play a role.
  • It is noted that air drag increases with speed, affecting fuel efficiency, particularly at higher velocities.
  • Some argue that calculating the exact impact of weight and speed on fuel consumption requires specific vehicle data, suggesting simulations with varying parameters.
  • Participants discuss the need for a framework of equations to analyze energy and time efficiency across different delivery methods.
  • There is a question about the application of the equation E=Fd, with some participants discussing the forces involved, including friction and aerodynamic drag.
  • Concerns are raised about the efficiency of different gears and their impact on power usage.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that both speed and weight affect power usage, but there is no consensus on the exact relationships or calculations involved. Multiple competing views on the factors influencing energy efficiency remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific vehicle characteristics and the need for more precise definitions of terms like "ForceFriction." The discussion acknowledges the complexity of calculating energy consumption due to various forces acting on vehicles.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for individuals interested in transportation efficiency, environmental impacts of delivery methods, and those working on related engineering or mathematical modeling projects.

Maxicl
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TL;DR
Hi, I'm working on a project to see if deliveries, pick ups, or both combined are better for the environment / more energy efficient / more time efficient.
For example, (a) everyone collecting from a farm by bike, (b) vans bringing to supermarkets and then people collecting from supermarkets, or (c) vans -> town depot -> home delivery.

Does the power usage of the van depend on how much weight it is carrying? What about the speed? And what is the relationship between these?
Hi, I'm working on a project to see if deliveries, pick ups, or both combined are better for the environment / more energy efficient / more time efficient. For example, (a) everyone collecting from a farm by bike, (b) vans bringing to supermarkets and then people collecting from supermarkets, or (c) vans -> town depot -> home delivery.
Does the power usage of the van depend on how much weight it is carrying? What about the speed? And what is the relationship between these?
Is the relationship different for vans/cars/bikes?

The main question behind this is what sort of network would be most optimised for energy and what would be most optimised for time, but I am just trying to build up intuition towards this. Would be glad if anyone can help or direct me :)
 
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Welcome to PF.

Maxicl said:
Does the power usage of the van depend on how much weight it is carrying? What about the speed?
That will depend on if there are hills, and if the van has regenerative braking.
Bicycles are not easy to ride up hills.
Vehicles must accelerate to get moving, then to stop they convert kinetic energy to heat in the brakes.
At higher speeds vehicle air drag increases as the square of velocity.
The load will weigh about the same as the tare of the van. An almost empty van costs fuel and a driver's wages.
 
Welcome to PF.

I'm sure you drive a car. Doesn't your gas mileage go down when you drive faster? Does a dump truck full of dirt use more fuel than your VW?

Yes, both speed and weight matter. The problem is calculating how much they vary without specific knowledge about the vehicles. You might best guess at the parameters for your study. Then re-run the simulation for the extreme ranges of your guesses. That will at least provide a range of results.
 
Welcome to PF.
Maxicl said:
I'm working on a project
Is this a schoolwork project? If so, I can move this thread to the schoolwork forums for you.

Maxicl said:
The main question behind this is what sort of network would be most optimised for energy and what would be most optimised for time
Start to come up with a framework of equations for each (energy used and person-hours used) for each of the steps and options you've outlined. The equations don't have to be exact yet, but as you start to outline them you will start to see what considerations you need to include.
 
Baluncore said:
Welcome to PF.That will depend on if there are hills, and if the van has regenerative braking.
Bicycles are not easy to ride up hills.
Vehicles must accelerate to get moving, then to stop they convert kinetic energy to heat in the brakes.
At higher speeds vehicle air drag increases as the square of velocity.
The load will weigh about the same as the tare of the van. An almost empty van costs fuel and a driver's wages.

Thank you!
 
berkeman said:
Welcome to PF.

Is this a schoolwork project? If so, I can move this thread to the schoolwork forums for you.Start to come up with a framework of equations for each (energy used and person-hours used) for each of the steps and options you've outlined. The equations don't have to be exact yet, but as you start to outline them you will start to see what considerations you need to include.
No, just my own.
Ok, I've made some formulas now, but not sure about the E=Fd rule... If I've made formulas for forces due to friction and know instantaneous acceleration of the vehicle, is calculating energy just a matter of E= (ForceFriction - Mass*Acceleration)*distance ?
Thank you!
 
anorlunda said:
Welcome to PF.

I'm sure you drive a car. Doesn't your gas mileage go down when you drive faster? Does a dump truck full of dirt use more fuel than your VW?

Yes, both speed and weight matter. The problem is calculating how much they vary without specific knowledge about the vehicles. You might best guess at the parameters for your study. Then re-run the simulation for the extreme ranges of your guesses. That will at least provide a range of results.
Mmm, I guess I might need to look at different car specs ... I've also read there's different power efficiencies depending on the gear you use so that may also come into it.
Thank you!
 
Maxicl said:
is calculating energy just a matter of E= (ForceFriction - Mass*Acceleration)*distance ?
Yes, it is.

I'm not sure what you mean by "ForceFriction", but there are no subtractions. All the forces implied are added up and they are rolling resistance, aerodynamic drag, and inertia (mass*acceleration).

The rolling resistance is usually minor and the aerodynamic drag is more significant on the highway (constant high speed) and inertia is more significant in the city (frequent accelerations, but low speed).
 
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