What is the role of acceptance in understanding slippery concepts?

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by drag
I completely disagree with this over-idealistic view.

Although we apparently have certain basic tendencies
we do not think or want the same things. Most of
us indeed do what we want. The great ristrictions
upon our actions and thus wishes are forced by
social order - a delicate balance between the
intrests of people and their need to co-exist
in a stable condition. Suffering for the majority
of the world does not have its source in the few
that impose their will on the many (as has been
a long time ago in the past), but rather in the many
that impose their will upon themselves. Further more,
the huge amount of people on the planet, their
resource consumption rate and their average
life-style that is higher than the planet's ability
to support it for such a population, are continuing
to decrease the possible range of freedom one can
be allowed to possesses in a stable society, no matter
the type of order in that society. This also leads
to suffering and more of it.

Our societies try to compensate for these factors by
increasing the "superficial" and "artificial" perceptions
of freedom: by changing the types of social order, by striving
for equality - centering around the average, by focusing
on the smaller aspects and through education and
more stable and suttle social norms. But, the
instability is there, it's basic and inescapable
and as long as 2+ people co-exist it will always be
there in some amount and hence also the most
important factor for suffering will too.

Suffering... can't live with it, can't live without it.

I read what you said several times, and I still can't quite figure out why you felt it was an exception to my statement that "It [acceptance] really only applies to [reality] because reality is the one thing you cannot fight and win. All the suffering of the world is brought about by people who don't understand how to accept this truth."

I can't see how it is idealistic to say reality works in certain ways which, if we don't accept, it will cause suffering. For example, whether someone imposes their will on others, or their own will on themselves, if that will is contrary to human nature, they will suffer. If we go against nature by using up the planet's resources and polluting the air so badly we can't breathe, that will cause suffering. All I was saying was that an important aspect of "reality" is the underlying rules of nature which have taken billions of years to establish. We can't just do anything we want -- there has to be a certain acquiesense to this nature when we do whatever it is we want to do or reality will come crashing down on our obtuse heads.

Now all that is about outer acceptance, but then I added another element, which Royce also talked about, and that is the sort of "surrender" one does in inner pursuits. Those of us who practice that learn about an inner realm that has a nature too, and it is very different from the outer realm. It is so inalterable one has to surrender (inwardly) to it to know it. In my experience, there's no if's, and's or but's -- it's either surrender or you don't get to touch it. In other words, you can be part of it, but you can never make it part of you.

Why do people attempt that? For me, at least, it is for a very simple reason, and that is: because it feels good. When I feel good from within, I want to do and be good, so I think it has practical value too.

Thus you have the parameters I follow for acceptance. It has nothing to do with accepting evil or stupidity, which I might indeed fight. It's just about recognizing and working in harmony with the underlying nature of things.

 

[BoulderHead]

Royce,

We grab an umbrella not a sword to go beat the weather into submission to make it stop raining. Nor are we angry or disappointed that it is raining. It is as simple as that. We let it rain and get on with our lifes. The only difference is that we try to do that with every facet of our lifes and find harmony within and without ourselves and become one with nature. It is after all what we are in reality.

What if a hurricane accompanies that rain and destroys your home, killing all of your family members in the process?
No anger or dissappointment?

 

[BoulderHead]

LW Sleeth,

I know of another and more everyday example too. The best racquetball player in our club is a joy to watch because he is so relaxed. No one hits harder and more accurately or moves faster, but if you watch him, it is hard to tell he is expending much effort. Michael Jordan moves like that too, or look at relaxed swing of Tiger Woods. Watch how a great horse rider merges with horse, and so on.

I relate this more to a state of concentration than acceptance. By keeping other parts of your body, such as your face, relaxed, a runner can focus concentration more on his/her legs, where it counts...

 

[BoulderHead]

Wu Li,

By definition, a smart-ass quote cannot mean just anything. It is a clear expression of negativity.

What happens to 'acceptance' when negativity is expressed?

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
Royce,
What if a hurricane accompanies that rain and destroys your home, killing all of your family members in the process?
No anger or dissappointment?

Yeah, that would be a challenge. But, such tragedies happen to people all the time. I've had my share. Most people, after some time period, get over it and move on. The questions is how to handle that recovery period. Will it be extended by fighting and resisting what's already too late to stop? Or will it be shortened by working to accept what has happened so one can get on with living.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
LW Sleeth,
I relate this more to a state of concentration than acceptance. By keeping other parts of your body, such as your face, relaxed, a runner can focus concentration more on his/her legs, where it counts...

True, the atheletic examples aren't very deep, but I still believe it reflects acceptance in that one accepts one's physical nature so completely one relaxes in it. I have been in sports my whole life, and I believe I am a better athelete now than when I was younger (even if a lot slower) because I relax and flow with a sport more instead of totally trying to impose my will on a situation.

 

[Royce]

Originally posted by LW Sleeth
Yeah, that would be a challenge. But, such tragedies happen to people all the time. I've had my share. Most people, after some time period, get over it and move on. The questions is how to handle that recovery period. Will it be extended by fighting and resisting what's already too late to stop? Or will it be shortened by working to accept what has happened so one can get on with living.

One exception, Les. We don't get over it. It is a part of us for ever. A tragedy such as that changes us forever just as every other expierence changes us but this more drastically. We learn to live with if and eventually to accept it as our new reality and then we go on living our life. Just as acceptance doesn't mean quiting it doesn't mean that we are free of emotions, anger, pain or anguish.
Acceptance helps us get over it and pick ourselves up and go on without destroying ourselves. Rather than quiting and cutting our throats it gives us the strength and reason to go on.

 

[BoulderHead]

Just as acceptance doesn't mean quiting it doesn't mean that we are free of emotions, anger, pain or anguish.

So how, really, is eastern acceptance much different from a westerner who knows that he needs to “Just Deal With it!”?

I think many people in the west may believe that the minds of easterners are somehow different from their own, as if these people have their act together in a way denied to the western-minded folk…

I look at Wu Li, LW, and Royce, all trying to put their fingers on something where they seem to share a commonality, yet they too have disagreements on the matter. Next, I look to ‘the East’ and see that these people all murder and enslave each other too. There are a very few who have burned themselves alive in protest while another stands lighting his cigarette, watching the spectacle…

No, I simply do not accept (haha) that what is practiced ‘over there’ really works much better than a western liberal’s idea of “Why can’t we all just get along together”. We are all different, even though we may attempt to follow a similar path, this is what I see. In the final analysis I believe it is up to each of us alone to decide what will or will not work to help us cope with this life.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
No, I simply do not accept (haha) that what is practiced ‘over there’ really works much better than a western liberal’s idea of “Why can’t we all just get along together”. We are all different, even though we may attempt to follow a similar path, this is what I see. In the final analysis I believe it is up to each of us alone to decide what will or will not work to help us cope with this life. [/B]

Life is an evolution, not simply something to be coped with. It is the progressive movement we see, not just the chaotic ebb and flow, that we pay attention to. Two thousand years ago the Romans excitedly watched gladiators fight to the death, lions eat Christians, etc. while simultaneously helping to create the foundations of science. The Chinese were sacraficing virgins to the Gods of the lakes, rivers, and streams while simultaneously inventing gunpowder, eyeglasses, and countless other useful things.

No doubt we all have a long way to go, but that does not mean we can't see the writing on the wall. Fortunately, you don't need a weather man to know which way the wind blows. Just as western thought has proven uniquely valuable in the physical sciences and other areas, Asian thought is now proving uniquely valuable in psychology among other things.

As for it merely being up to the individual to decide what is best for themselves, there is a certain truth to that but a limited one. Today it is hollywood and the governments among others that decide how people think and what they are aware of. Fortunately, the internet is still somewhat uncensored and wonderful new arena for comparing ideas.

 

[Royce]

BH, Its just words that are differrent. Acceptance is one way of just dealing with it. It is a way, a method of helping us deal with it and everything else. We all altimately have to find our own way.
We are just pointing out an alternate route to the western mind that you and others may not be familiar with. It's not instant heaven nor instant nervana. It is simply a way. I have found it much more rewarding and fulfilling that sitting in a chuch listening to someone who at best I don't agree with and at worst is lying to me and trying to control my mind, life and wallet.
"Try it. You'll like it." "It can't hurt." Just to throw in a few cookie cutter quotes.

 

[Les Sleeth]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
So how, really, is eastern acceptance much different from a westerner who knows that he needs to “Just Deal With it!”? . . .
I look at Wu Li, LW, and Royce, all trying to put their fingers on something where they seem to share a commonality, yet they too have disagreements on the matter. Next, I look to ‘the East’ and see that these people all murder and enslave each other too. There are a very few who have burned themselves alive in protest while another stands lighting his cigarette, watching the spectacle… No, I simply do not accept (haha) that what is practiced ‘over there’ really works much better than a western liberal’s idea . . .

I think you are right to say the West has its own version of acceptance, and that some Westerners do romanticize the "East." However, I am not sure Wuli, Royce and myself are disagreeing so much as we are speaking of our personal experiences with and study of the practice.

One way I definitely disagree with you is when you suggest there is nothing to appreciate about the Eastern take on acceptance. I don't think what the masses do (anywhere) is relevant because it is the masters of a practice that have realized it most. It would be like judging the scientific achievements of the West by the general population's understanding of science.

In the East, there were individuals who made a point of focusing on the principles of acceptance, harmony, naturalness and surrender. I personally have learned a great deal from studing such individuals. Chinese philosophy in particular has resonated with me from the first time I read it, and I still read it nearly everyday in the I Ching. But, don't judge the realization of the Chinese masters by how well I practice.

So I don't see anything wrong with acknowledging some culture's specialization in a area of consciousness development. It takes nothing away from us, and may even help.

 

[Royce]

Well said, Les. Once again you leave me with nothing to say or add.

 

[BoulderHead]

Wu Li,
Good points about Hollywood, Governments, and the Internet !

LW,
It’s not that I’m trying to suggest there is nothing to appreciate about the Eastern take on acceptance, in fact I have a lot of respect for certain Eastern viewpoints/philosophy. I don’t’ mind acknowledging some culture’s specialization in an area of consciousness development, either. More along the lines of what I’m trying to say is that plenty of Easterners themselves don’t seem to buy into it. At least, not enough to where I can see an overall increase of those people getting along with each other to a substantially higher degree than people do in the West. This ‘way of acceptance’, if I may call it as such, may be wonderful, but I don’t see it as being ‘better’ than some way in which a Westerner might cope with life. How do you even measure such a thing in the first place? That is why I turned to looking at their society in general…to see what impact it has had, and I think it hasn’t made enough positive change in their societies to warrant the ‘build up’ that it has been given here in the West. I think a large part of the fascination is that it is different, and therefore it has appeal. As far as coping with life, you could be a very pious Christian religionist and find a path worth following too.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by BoulderHead

This ‘way of acceptance’, if I may call it as such, may be wonderful, but I don’t see it as being ‘better’ than some way in which a Westerner might cope with life. How do you even measure such a thing in the first place?

Actually, the Philosophical Taoism that is the root of most Asian thought is rigorously practiced by a vanishingly small minority of Asians, just as many of the roots of western thought are seriously practiced by small minorities. As always happens, the masses tend to elaborate on such things and adapt them to the realities of everyday life rather than vice versa. How many scientists, for example, practice objectivity in the bedroom...on second thought... don't answer that!

Of particular interest to many is how Asian thought is currently being adapted to western thought and vice versa. In Asia, the emphasis is on practice, on meditation and lifestyle. Western Taoists are often considered by Asians to be too intellectual on the subject. Buddhist thought in particular has proven remarkably adaptable to the sciences, and it may well be that what Asian thought needs for its roots to become more popular and rigorously practiced is a shot of western science.

Acceptance can and is currently being measured in countless ways. One of the more promising avenues is actually called Acceptance and Commitment Therapy, which is an out growth of work done by Radical Behaviorists. By combining traditional western Contextualism with Buddhism and Behaviorism with Linguistics, the first science connecting the cognitive and behavioral sciences has been created. This means that statistically at least, scientists can now measure acceptance not only according to what the individual declares their acceptance to be, but according to behavioral analysis as well and the two can be directly correlated.

Acceptance can be defined as harmonious, receptive, open minded, and other vague qualitities, but it can also be defined by specifics as well. A person who overcomes their grief to accept the death of a loved one for example. Notably, such clear correlations between the behavioral and cognitive also present scientists with the first opportunity to actually study the objectivity of scientists...well...objectively!

 

[BoulderHead]

So East and West then are borrowing from one another, with a tendency to combine, hopefully to something even more fruitful then either one has been by itself. If it leads to greater unity of 'the masses' then I think it could be a good thing.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by BoulderHead
So East and West then are borrowing from one another, with a tendency to combine, hopefully to something even more fruitful then either one has been by itself. If it leads to greater unity of 'the masses' then I think it could be a good thing.

Not just greater unity of masses, but imo it is leading to the next scientific revolution. An organic science rather than the current mechanistic one tracing back to Newton and Galileo.

 

[Royce]

One thing i would like to point out. Jews have been meditating for millinia as have Christians. Meditation is not exclusively asian.
The methods and words are different but many of the results and findings are identical or nearly so whether East or West.

 

[wuliheron]

Originally posted by Royce
One thing i would like to point out. Jews have been meditating for millinia as have Christians. Meditation is not exclusively asian.
The methods and words are different but many of the results and findings are identical or nearly so whether East or West.

Yes, the practice dates back to Shamanistic ones like rites of passage. Eastern and western religions and philosophies share a great deal more in common the further back you go. Often its assumed we have nothing to learn from the most primitive of people, that we have progressed beyond the need for such practices. The truth is we have more often either simply traded them for other practices or modified them.

 

[Royce]

So true, wuli.
It is not that we should go back to simpler times but that to oftem we have thrown the baby out with the bath water in our headlong rush of advangement. We do need to go back and pick throught the dirt and ashes and see what other marvels we may have left behind and that have been lost to us for so long.