What is the size of a VHF photon?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the size of a VHF photon, exploring the implications of wave-particle duality and the challenges associated with measuring or defining the size of photons, particularly in the context of VHF electromagnetic radiation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that electromagnetic radiation, including VHF, exhibits wave-particle duality, but question how to measure the size of a photon.
  • One participant suggests that the only linear measurement associated with a VHF photon would be its wavelength, which ranges from one to ten meters, and provides energy values for these photons.
  • Another participant argues that photons do not have a well-defined size, comparing the question to asking about the salinity of a number.
  • There are discussions about the implications of conducting double-slit experiments with VHF photons, including the need for large slits due to their wavelength.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the possibility of detecting individual VHF photons and discuss the challenges involved in such experiments.
  • One participant mentions that interference patterns can be detected with radio waves, but questions the feasibility of detecting individual photons.
  • Another participant discusses the relationship between the size of detection dots on plates and the properties of the detection medium, emphasizing that detection is influenced by the interaction of light with solid materials.
  • There is a mention of the experimental difficulties in detecting VHF photons, including the need for low temperatures to mitigate thermal noise.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally do not reach a consensus on the concept of photon size, with multiple competing views remaining regarding the nature of photons and the feasibility of measuring or detecting them.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in defining photon size, noting that the characteristic wavelength does not equate to a physical size. There are also unresolved questions regarding the conditions necessary for conducting experiments with VHF photons.

Dante Meira
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I read that electromagnetic radiation behaves both as particle and as wave, in what is called wave–particle duality. Given that the radio waves of VHF television have wavelengths from one to ten meters, what is the size of a "VHF photon"?
 
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The only linear measurement associated with it would be the 1 to 10 meters.
It would have an energy of 0.00000123984 to 0.000000123984 electron volts.

I think the key here is to ask how you are going to measure the size of these photons.
So: how do you proposed to measure this photon?
 
Well, I don't know how to measure it... I was just imagining that if you try to do the double-slit experiment with VHF photons you got to use really huge slits...
 
Dante Meira said:
I read that electromagnetic radiation behaves both as particle and as wave, in what is called wave–particle duality. Given that the radio waves of VHF television have wavelengths from one to ten meters, what is the size of a "VHF photon"?

If you spend a bit of time, you'll see that we have had numerous threads in this forum on the topic of the "size" of a photon. There is a long "trail of tears" left behind in these threads of people incorrectly imagining photons being this "bullets" of particles having some finite, well-defined size. They don't.

Nowhere in the description of the physics is there any description of a photon's size. There is a characteristic wavelength, and this often defines other properties of this photon, but it has never been used to signify its size.

A photon is not a classical particle. It can't be from the way it is behaving. Thus, your question is similar to asking "How salty is the number 12?"

Zz.
 
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Dante Meira said:
I read that electromagnetic radiation behaves both as particle and as wave, in what is called wave–particle duality. Given that the radio waves of VHF television have wavelengths from one to ten meters, what is the size of a "VHF photon"?

Infrared photons can be detected with about 67% efficiency, see, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_nanowire_single-photon_detector

Don't think one could both produce and detect single VHF photons though I do not know if there is some quantum limit that prevents such a thing?

You could do interference experiments with a VHF source of radiation and I think you could use a large metal plate with slits sized and spaced of order the wavelength of the VHF radiation. An antenna on the far side of the plate would detect an interference pattern.

Classical electrodynamics would tell you if the slits got smaller then some size (anyone?) the radiation that got through the slits would diminish rapidly. Is it of order the wavelength of the radiation?
 
ZapperZ said:
Nowhere in the description of the physics is there any description of a photon's size. There is a characteristic wavelength, and this often defines other properties of this photon, but it has never been used to signify its size.

A photon is not a classical particle. It can't be from the way it is behaving. Thus, your question is similar to asking "How salty is the number 12?"

Zz.

How should I interpret the size of the dots in the plate used in the double-slit experiment with photons?

What will determine the size of the dots in the plate? The energy level of the photon has no relation to it?
 
Dante Meira said:
How should I interpret the size of the dots in the plate used in the double-slit experiment with photons?

What will determine the size of the dots in the plate? The energy level of the photon has no relation to it?

The size of the dot on the plate has a lot to do with the plate! I can show you various CCDs where light of the same wavelength will make dots of different sizes, depending on the resolution and the electronics of the plate!

A "detection" is made when light interacts with something. This something often is a solid, which means that an atom or molecule that are attached to many, many other atoms and molecules! The neighbors often "talk" to each other! (Crosstalk is a major issue in electronic circuit detectors when spatial resolution is a concern.)

Zz.
 
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ZapperZ said:
The size of the dot on the plate has a lot to do with the plate! I can show you various CCDs where light of the same wavelength will make dots of different sizes, depending on the resolution and the electronics of the plate!

A "detection" is made when light interacts with something. This something often is a solid, which means that an atom or molecule that are attached to many, many other atoms and molecules! The neighbors often "talk" to each other! (Crosstalk is a major issue in electronic circuit detectors when spatial resolution is a concern.)

Zz.

Thank you for clarifying that.

I'm just really curious to know which would be the requirements for performing the double-slit experiment with VHF photons, or photon with even bigger wavelengths.
 
You can certainly detect the interference patterns produced by radio waves. Not sure how/if you could detect the individual photons.
 
  • #10
Dante Meira said:
Thank you for clarifying that.

I'm just really curious to know which would be the requirements for performing the double-slit experiment with VHF photons, or photon with even bigger wavelengths.
You might notice that an ordinary TV antenna is an interference experiment, where the elements create an interference pattern off one end of the antenna.
If using slits in a large metal sheet, the smallest slit through which the energy will pass is about half a wavelength long, and if the polarisation is at 90 degrees to the slit, it can be extremely narrow - a razor cut will work.
 
  • #11
CWatters said:
You can certainly detect the interference patterns produced by radio waves. Not sure how/if you could detect the individual photons.

Experiments have been done using single photons of a few GHz (typically 4-8 GHz), this corresponds to wavelenghts (on chip) of about 1 cm.
VHF would be quite tricky since you would need to cool your system down to very low temperatures to get rid of the thermal photons. It might just about be possible in a microkelvin fridge but experimentally it would be a bit of a nightmare.
Also, what would be the point?
 
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  • #12
f95toli said:
Experiments have been done using single photons of a few GHz (typically 4-8 GHz), this corresponds to wavelenghts (on chip) of about 1 cm.
VHF would be quite tricky since you would need to cool your system down to very low temperatures to get rid of the thermal photons. It might just about be possible in a microkelvin fridge but experimentally it would be a bit of a nightmare.
Also, what would be the point?
I'm not sure if there would be any point after all... I was just curious to know if it would be possible to do. Thank your for clarifying that.
 

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