What is the true definition of countable sets?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the definition of countable sets in mathematics, exploring various interpretations and nuances of the term. Participants examine definitions from textbooks, Wikipedia, and personal notes, addressing the distinctions between countable, countably infinite, and uncountable sets.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes a definition from their textbook stating that a set E is countable if there exists a 1-1 function from the natural numbers onto E, implying a bijection.
  • Another participant asserts that a set S is countable if there exists an injective function from S to the natural numbers, clarifying that surjectivity is not required for countability.
  • There is a discussion about the meaning of countably infinite, with some participants indicating that a set is countably infinite if there exists a bijection from S to the natural numbers.
  • Examples are provided, such as the integers and rationals being countably infinite, while the reals are noted as uncountable.
  • One participant raises a question about the relationship between injections from N to S and from S to N, seeking clarification on whether they imply each other.
  • Another participant explains that an injection from a finite set to the natural numbers does not imply an injection from the natural numbers to that finite set.
  • The Cantor-Schroder-Bernstein theorem is mentioned, stating that if there are injections between N and S in both directions, then a bijection exists between them.
  • Different terminologies used by various authors are discussed, with some using "countable" to refer only to sets with a bijection to the natural numbers, while others include finite sets as countable.
  • A participant poses a question about the existence of injections for finite sets, providing examples to illustrate their understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definition of countable sets, particularly regarding the inclusion of finite sets in the definition. There is no consensus on a singular definition, as multiple interpretations are presented and debated.

Contextual Notes

Some definitions depend on the context and the specific terminology used by different authors, leading to potential confusion. The discussion highlights the importance of clarifying definitions and assumptions when discussing countability.

CAF123
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I seem to have a couple of contradictory statements of what a countable set is defined to be:
In my textbook I have:
'Let E be a set. E is said to be countable if and only if there exists a 1-1 function which takes ##\mathbb{N}## onto E.'

This implies to me that that there has to exist a beijection from ##\mathbb{N}## to E since they use 1-1 and onto in the definition.

In my notes I have: E is said to be countable if there is a bijection ##f: \mathbb{N} \mapsto E##'

However, when I looked on Wikipedia, I read:
A set S is called countable if there exists an injective function f from S to the natural numbers N.

Is there a contradiction here and if so, what is the true definition?
 
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The true definition is: a set S is countable if there exists an injection f:S\rightarrow \mathbb{N}. Note it does NOT have to be a surjection as well, in general. IF f also happens to be surjective then we say S is countably infinite.
 
That was a quick reply. What exactly does countably infinite mean?
If I understand correctly, then if a set is finite it is automatically countable. So an infinite set is countable provided there exists a bijection from N to E?
 
A set S is countably infinite if there exists a bijection f:S\rightarrow \mathbb{N}. If S is not countable (i.e. neither countably infinite nor countably finite) then we say S is uncountable. So, for example, \mathbb{Z},\mathbb{Q} are countably infinite but \mathbb{R} is uncountable (the proof of this is one of the most beautiful proofs in mathematics and was shown by Cantor using the extremely elegant diagonal argument).
 
WannabeNewton said:
A set S is countably infinite if there exists a bijection f:S\rightarrow \mathbb{N}. If S is not countable (i.e. neither countably infinite nor countably finite) then we say S is uncountable. So, for example, \mathbb{Z},\mathbb{Q} are countably infinite but \mathbb{R} is uncountable (the proof of this is one of the most beautiful proofs in mathematics and was shown by Cantor using the extremely elegant diagonal argument).
I have in my notes that '...bijection from N to S'. But you have bijection from S to N. I suppose it won't matter here. But for an injection N to S, is an injection S to N the same thing. (it seems so, but I just want to clarify).
 
No it doesn't mean the same thing. There exists an injection f:\left \{ 1,2 \right \}\rightarrow \mathbb{N} (it is just the inclusion map). Does that imply there exists an injection f:\mathbb{N}\rightarrow \left \{ 1,2 \right \}? It doesn't of course!
 
Just to add that the Cantor-Schroder-Bernstein says that if there are injections between N and S and between S and N , then there is a bijection between N and S .
 
A fun and short exercise is to show, using the well ordering theorem, that there exists an uncountable well - ordered set Y such that \forall x\in Y, there exist only countably many y\in Y such that y < x. It's a pretty awesome result considering we are talking about an uncountable, totally ordered set!
 
Different authors tend to use different terminology. Some authors use countable to denote that there is a bijection to the natural numbers. In their terminology, finite sets are not countable. Other authors (the majority, I guess), allow finite sets to be countable.
 
  • #10
For sets that are finite and said to be countable does that mean there always exists an injection from S to N?

In your example, an injection could be ##1 \mapsto 1## and ##2\mapsto 2##?

Or if we take a set {1} then the injection could be ##1 \mapsto a##, ##a \in \mathbb{N}##.
 
  • #11
Yes to all your questions.
 

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