What Structure Must G Have for All Aut(G) Elements to Send N to N

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    Finite Groups
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the structure of a finite group \( G \) and its normal subgroup \( N \), specifically exploring the conditions under which all elements of the automorphism group \( \text{Aut}(G) \) map \( N \) to itself. The problem is framed within the context of group theory, focusing on the relationship between the orders of \( N \) and \( G/N \) and the implications for automorphisms.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the problem and notes the assumption that the order of \( N \) is relatively prime to the order of \( G/N \).
  • Another participant reformulates the problem, emphasizing the need to prove that if \( f \) is in \( \text{Aut}(G) \), then \( f(N) = N \).
  • A participant discusses the implications of \( |f(N)| = |N| \) and the coprimality with \( |G/N| \), leading to observations about the order of elements in \( f(N) \).
  • There is a clarification on notation and a detailed exploration of the consequences of the order of \( f(n) \) and its relation to \( N \) and \( G/N \).
  • Another participant acknowledges the correctness of a previous solution while expressing their own approach to the problem.
  • Further elaboration on the implications of Lagrange's theorem is provided, reinforcing the argument that \( f(N) \) must equal \( N \).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants engage in a detailed exploration of the problem, with some agreeing on the correctness of certain steps while others propose alternative formulations. The discussion includes refinements and corrections, but no consensus is reached on a final resolution of the problem.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the orders of groups and elements, and the implications of these assumptions are not fully resolved. The relationship between the orders of \( N \) and \( G/N \) is central to the arguments presented.

eastside00_99
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Here is another problem from Lang.

Let G be a finite group. N a normal subgroup. We want to ask what structure must G have in order for all the elements of Aut(G) to send N to N. It is assumed that the order of N is relatively prime to the order of G/N. I have worked on this problem for a while and must be missing something pretty basic.
 
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In other words, let G be finite, N a normal subgroup of G with the order of N relatively prime to the order of G/N. Prove that if g is in Aut(G)), then g(N)=N.
 
Let's use f instead of g to avoid confusion. First, note that |f(N)|=|N| since f is a bijection. So in particular, |f(N)| and |G/N| are coprime. Next consider an arbitrary element f(n) of f(N) and set k=o(f(n)). Observe that (f(n)N)^k = (f(n)N)^|G/N| = N. So... ?
 
morphism said:
Let's use f instead of g to avoid confusion. First, note that |f(N)|=|N| since f is a bijection. So in particular, |f(N)| and |G/N| are coprime. Next consider an arbitrary element f(n) of f(N) and set k=o(f(n)). Observe that (f(n)N)^k = (f(n)N)^|G/N| = N. So... ?

I guess I would write it a little bit differently. But, yeah, your solution is right. I can't believe how a simply problem can catch me off guard like that.

Assume n is in N and n=/=e. (The case for when n=e is trivial) Let k be the order of f(n). Yes, I think i see: f(n)^k =e and so N = (f(n)N)^k. Therefore, k divides |G/N|, and we get your identity

N = (f(n)N)^k = (f(n)N)^|G/N|.

But, also we have e=f(n)^k=f(n^k). Since f is injective, n^k=e. k must be the order of n (for t<=k and n^t =e implies f(n)^t=e implies k divides t implies k=t). Therefore, k divides |N| also. Therefore, k=1 and your identity reads N=f(n)N whence f(n) is in N. As f is bijective, f(N) must equal N.
 
Last edited:
oh, I forgot to thank you. Thanks for your help.
 
No problem.

By the way, the reason I wrote my solution the way I did was because I wanted to proceed slightly differently. Here's how I would've continued my post: "So o(f(n)N) divides k and |G/N|. But k divides |f(N)| (by Lagrange), and |f(N)| and |G/N| are coprime. Thus o(f(n)N)=1, and consequently f(n) is in N. It follows that f(N) is a subset of N, and hence all of N since |f(N)|=|N|."
 

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