What would be proof that God exists?

  • Thread starter Laser Eyes
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  • #201
Gokul43201 said:
All I'm saying is that assumption of the 'ability to do anything' leads to logical inconsistencies.
Yes, but there are also problems with only having uncertainty:



Here is a quote of Richard Feynman:


"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it’s much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. "
Feynman also appears to be expressing a mathematical paradox, basically in the form of a statement:

We can only be certain that we are not-certain :eek: :eek: :eek:


X iff not-X

:cry: :cry: :cry:
 
  • #202
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Zero said:
Honestly, there can be no absolute proof. I'd be willing to accept any clear-cut evidence of a specific religion's deity, but that still couldn't prove that it was an actual god. It could, after all, be an alien.
i will give you one thing and i believe that will do it. i said i will since you said you are willing to accept any religion thing. so, here goes, islam.
just take Qur'an as prove for existance of God, one needs no others for it.

if you think it is written by someone else or so, then simply take this:
“And if ye are in doubt As to what We have revealed From time to time to Our Servant, then produce a Soorah Like thereunto; And call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, If your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot –And of a surety you cannot. hen fear the Fire Whose fuel is Men and Stones – Which is prepared for those Who reject Faith.”
[Al-Qur’aan 2:23-24]

The challenge of the Qur’aan, is to produce a single Soorah (chapter) like the Soorahs it contains. The same challenge is repeated in the Qur’aan several times. The challenge to produce a Soorah, which, in beauty, eloquence, depth and meaning is at least somewhat similar to a Qur’aanic Soorah.

this is a challenge for the human being for forever but no one until this day could do anything but failed and accepted it as the prove for the existance of God.

if you like to see more, there are many well known scientist and so on worked on it. this site is for it. www.it-is-truth.com[/URL]
if you like to visit it. okay

you said it could be after all alien. but who is that alien could be? and who is the creator of that alien?

just take that challenge and work on that you will get your answer if you are looking for it. i am happy at least that you are willing to accept anything to find the question answer. i don't like that people limit their points and limit others words to only certain fields. why don't they want to know others? aren't they human?
okay
take care.
 
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  • #203
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nasrin wrote:

if you like to see more, there are many well known scientist and so on worked on it. this site is for it. www.it-is-truth.com[/URL]
if you like to visit it. okay[/quote]


I looked into the Muslim site. Warning bells immediately go off whenever I see a scientist claiming to know the "truth".

This following passage basically sums up the crackpottery that is [PLAIN]www.it-is-truth.com[/URL]


From [PLAIN]www.it-is-truth.com:[/URL]

[quote]Therefore, when there is a conflict between the meaning of a clear, explicit verse (meaning qat'ee ad-dalaalah) of the Qur'aan and 'modern' science. a Muslim must take the verse of the Qur'aan - without hesitation - over any scientific 'fact'. A rejection of such a verse, or even the apparent meaning of such a verse, would be tantamount to a rejection of Allah's knowledge. For example, the theory of evolution is, for the most part, agreed upon by the majority of non-Muslim scholars. Whether there is strong proof to back up the theory or not is irrelevant - the Qur'aan is clear that Allah created Adam from His own Hands, and "From him He created his mate, and from these two He spread forth many men and women" (4:1)

Therefore a Muslim can never believe in the theory that men are descendants of apes, no matter what "proof" might seem to exist.2 Neither is it allowed, as some Muslim rationalists have done, to try to interpret clear Qur'aanic texts to suit modern theories. Following the above example, to try to interpret the story of the creation of Adam and Eve as actually having been the creation of some Neanderthal neo-human species is almost as blasphemous as rejecting the verse in the first place![/quote]

:rofl:
 
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  • #204
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fleetze said:
nasrin wrote:




I looked into the Muslim site. Warning bells immediately go off whenever I see a scientist claiming to know the "truth".

This following passage basically sums up the crackpottery that is www.it-is-truth.com[/URL]


From [PLAIN]www.it-is-truth.com:[/URL]




:rofl:[/QUOTE]


i did not understand what you are trying to say. would you mind to explain it a little.
thank you
take care
 
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  • #205
Gokul43201
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nasrin said:
The challenge of the Qur’aan, is to produce a single Soorah (chapter) like the Soorahs it contains. The same challenge is repeated in the Qur’aan several times. The challenge to produce a Soorah, which, in beauty, eloquence, depth and meaning is at least somewhat similar to a Qur’aanic Soorah.
Unfortunately Nasrin, beauty, eloquence and depth are subjective qualities and can not be determined to an arbitrary extent by an impartial judge. So this is no proof of God.

And additionally, there are many people that believe there are more beautiful or eloquent pieces of writing than the quoted text.

And in response to your provided link, here's another : http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/#external
 
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  • #206
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Gokul43201 said:
Unfortunately Nasrin, beauty, eloquence and depth are subjective qualities and can not be determined to an arbitrary extent by an impartial judge. So this is no proof of God.

And additionally, there are many people that believe there are more beautiful or eloquent pieces of writing than the quoted text.

And in response to your provided link, here's another : http://answering-islam.org.uk/Quran/Contra/#external
thanks for your provided link, the first thing i read on that link page is the line that says contradicts, if you think there is contradicts in Qur'an then it is absolutely not ture, there is a person who just made a lists of contradicts about qur'an and i read an article answering that person and the mistake the person made was he didn't understand Qur'an language and took its meaning the way he wanted. here is the link to it:
http://www.islamselect.com/english/index.php?ref=575&pg=mat&ln=2&PHPSESSID=e9754789665f257ffcc610dc8e993ea6 [Broken]
and about beauty, well brother this world is wonderful and nature all around us. one simply gets lost when he/she sees the beautiful sky turns so many colors and design and so on. here is a verse from Qur'an to me it is the most wonderful words on earth that describes nature in such a beautiful way.
you guys were looking for proves for God existance, but i didn't know that the intention behind was different. well, for God existance that quote is enough if one takes it seriously. to go into to Qur'an you need to be open minded and free of everything with thoughts to sink inside it. but if you go into it with all that contradicts stuffs, it is evil side that will make you do things that way. God clearly stated in Qur'an there is no Contradicts in it for it is not written by human like us. and you will find so, if you are open hearted. there are so many people did and one example is the most popular singer of UK, whose now name is Yusuf Islam.
thanks once again. i will try to visit that site in dept. okay. bye.

002.164 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.

Al-Qur'an, 002.164 (Al-Baqara [The Cow])

Text Copied from DivineIslam's Qur'an Viewer software v2.8
 
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  • #207
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just one more thing, who runs that site may i know? is there some islamic scholars and i mean a well known one who is there also???
 
  • #208
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Laser Eyes said:
This question has probably been asked before but its a good question and I'd like a shot at dealing with it. Let's get down to basics. Never mind the Bible at this stage. I would like all those atheists or agnostics out there to state precisely what they would regard as satisfactory proof to them that God exists. If you believe that there is no such thing as God what would it take to change your mind, (assuming it is open to be changed of course)?
The bable fish.
 
  • #209
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how many times do we have to go through this?? if you 'believe' in the bible, you have one god. if you believe in the tora, another god. etc. etc. etc.

no matter what, if there is a god, s/he/it is of a nature that all the books combined do not reveal the truth. these books flow as a matter of worship, not proof. belief in a god is a personal value based on our individual connection. even atheism, etc are valid.

we will believe what is appropriate for us (the individual) at any given point in time. there will never be an external proof because god is a matter of faith.

love&peace,
olde drunk
 
  • #210
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There is obviously no absolute evidence for God existing, you are just trying to raise a stink. Anyways, there are 2 options: creation, or luck. The way i see it, by taking down 1 theory, you are proving the other. We can point out many holes and inconsistancies in the random chance theory. Evolutionists cannot provide explainations for everything with their theory, it is full of holes.
 
  • #211
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boring,God is not to be debated
 
  • #212
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So what evidence would convince god believers that god does not exist?

Of course god cannot be disproved, because it's not a scientific question; however, an accumulation of facts could lead to many contradictions.
So what's the nail in the coffin?

Of course religious people will/could always spin the facts.
 
  • #213
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I came to this forum two years ago in search of what I am supposed to do. I am still in the same quandry. It is a daily experience. This should be a sight of understanding and yet what I see is few understand anything. To understand God you must understand the universe. The two meet in the middle to become one. I have seen god, the burden is on you. What you do not understand you will be forced to live in the unconciousness of your expression. These acts have consequnces. If you knew some of the future you would curl into a little ball and crawl into a dark corner trying to hide from yourself. Be mindful dam you. Wake up now, your feet are on fire.
 
  • #214
Gokul43201
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musky_ox said:
Anyways, there are 2 options: creation, or luck. The way i see it, by taking down 1 theory, you are proving the other. We can point out many holes and inconsistancies in the random chance theory. Evolutionists cannot provide explainations for everything with their theory, it is full of holes.
The ancients did not know what an eclipse was and considered it a warning from God. Till the 18th Century, combustion was not explained. Fire was considered something mysterious. Till the early 20th century, lightning and thunder were mysteries and given all kinds of magical explanations like "God's displeasure with man".

Every time something is not understood (or understood only partially) people will call it the 'hand of God'. You are one of those people. I guess you believe the Church was right in persecuting Galileo.

And, by the way, show me the holes.
 
  • #215
Gokul43201
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Saint said:
boring,God is not to be debated
Speak for yourself. Telling others what they should or shouldn't do gets people kicked out of Forums.

If you don't want to debate this, stay out.
 
  • #216
Gokul43201
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YZer said:
So what evidence would convince god believers that god does not exist?

Of course god cannot be disproved, because it's not a scientific question; however, an accumulation of facts could lead to many contradictions.
So what's the nail in the coffin?

Of course religious people will/could always spin the facts.
This is a good question. The converse also has some truth. A disbeliever is unlikely to accept a description of a 'miracle' as proof of God. What will be the nail in that coffin ? Of sourse, that question could only be resolved by a personal experience, of the kind that has given the world so many converts and born-agains. But again, I know of no sicentist or thinker that was/is a covert or born-again, so I think these people (believers) are inherently more willing to attribute some low probability event to the hand of God.
 
  • #217
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TENYEARS said:
These acts have consequnces. If you knew some of the future you would curl into a little ball and crawl into a dark corner trying to hide from yourself. Be mindful dam you. Wake up now, your feet are on fire.
What acts ? What consequences ?

<waking up and looking at my feet>
 
  • #218
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Everyone believes in "God"; we just all understand it differently and all while not understanding God at the same time. Even if we had eternity at the expense of our limited bodies we could never stop learning and experiencing eternity. Everyone is intuned to God at their own level and people can beat drums all day like a little kid, but that doesn't mean that person knows how to play drums. He/She needs that desire or he/she will never hear the music within the noise that is waiting to be fine tuned and set in rythem with Life itself. I'm not saying being a kid and pretending to play isn't fine, but I am saying that a person's desires will grow faster than his/her mind if his/her own imagination cannot keep up with eternity unfolding in front of his/her very eyes.

People suffer because of ignorance; nothing more, nothing less. Our own imagination can hold us back from living Life, and imagination is limited by the principals we believe in. so why does it matter in which way believe in God when we all live, unless we're looking to expand our imagination?
 
  • #219
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Tigron-X said:
Everyone believes in "God"; we just all understand it differently and all while not understanding God at the same time.
For example, I believe that I am the one and only god and that everyone should bow down to me. Hail Smurf! Hail Smurf!
 
  • #220
amwbonfire
Smurf said:
For example, I believe that I am the one and only god and that everyone should bow down to me. Hail Smurf! Hail Smurf!
*Hails*

What if multiple people think they're the one and only god? Then you have a problem. :tongue2: I think I'm the only god. Let's fight it out. First one to die, loses.


EDIT: Oh wait, we're both Gods. We can't die. Well at least I'm a god, so I can't die. But you can... :devil:
 
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  • #221
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This Is God !!

amwbonfire said:
*Hails*

What if multiple people think they're the one and only god? Then you have a problem. :tongue2: I think I'm the only god. Let's fight it out. First one to die, loses.


EDIT: Oh wait, we're both Gods. We can't die. Well at least I'm a god, so I can't die. But you can... :devil:
Cut that out! Are you guys trying to get me PO'ed?? Here I am looking forward to a nice quiet Sunday off (do you remember honor the sabbath?), and you're cracking wise about who is god.

Look, you can mess with your lives as if you were god, but we gotta work together on these hurricanes and such. They only happen when your mass subconsiousnesses invite them.

now stop talking about what god is or isn't and get the word out that i want you to love all of nature and preach peace. humans are to far evolved to still mess with violence.

OK< now who's got the comics and my sports section??????????????

love&peace,
god
 
  • #222
Gokul43201
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olde drunk said:
...now stop talking about what god is or isn't and get the word out that i want you to love all of nature

love&peace,
god
Aaarghhh ! A nature worshipper ! Heretic ! Pagan ! I shall set my knights upon thee and thine unholy cult !
 
  • #223
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Smurf said:
For example, I believe that I am the one and only god and that everyone should bow down to me. Hail Smurf! Hail Smurf!
You're a Smurf! We have to make sure we don't walk all over you in our daily lives because it would be hard to take you serious when we're suppose to bow and you're on the bottom of our shoe.

But, I'm glad you gave it some thought instead of blowing it off with your surplus of intelligence that you just died to share with me by showing me your clever and witty ways of the world because that's what frustrates you in your daily life; not how you could live it better.

Great example, but I'm pretty sure it would be safe for me to assume that the highest power you can fathom is not yourself.


amwbonfire said:
*Hails*

What if multiple people think they're the one and only god? Then you have a problem. :tongue2: I think I'm the only god. Let's fight it out. First one to die, loses.


EDIT: Oh wait, we're both Gods. We can't die. Well at least I'm a god, so I can't die. But you can... :devil:
You would also join the rest, or certain parts, of the human race that fight about religion anyways, so you're still dying instead of living.

For example:

Example One:
olde drunk said:
Cut that out! Are you guys trying to get me PO'ed?? Here I am looking forward to a nice quiet Sunday off (do you remember honor the sabbath?), and you're cracking wise about who is god.

Look, you can mess with your lives as if you were god, but we gotta work together on these hurricanes and such. They only happen when your mass subconsiousnesses invite them.

now stop talking about what god is or isn't and get the word out that i want you to love all of nature and preach peace. humans are to far evolved to still mess with violence.

OK< now who's got the comics and my sports section??????????????

love&peace,
god
Example Two:
Gokul43201 said:
Aaarghhh ! A nature worshipper ! Heretic ! Pagan ! I shall set my knights upon thee and thine unholy cult !
 
  • #224
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God, gods, no god, and agnostics.

Let's please take god seriously. Each of us has the ability to believe in (a) god, and as such it is good to realize we have that ability. What to do with the ability is a second question, and the freedom we have to come to our own understandings is enormous.

Nobody has any problem understanding that freedom exists, but right after the installment of freedom we do bump into problems, because freedom means that one person can go left, and the other person can go right without either having to reconcile their choice with the other person's choice. Often this goes without a problem, but sometimes choices lead to nasty outcomes.

In religion the same is true throughout history. By believing in multiple gods, or a single god, or no god, many clashes have been taken place - with deadly results and all. Freedom cannot be negotiated; one needs to deliver respect in order to give freedom and take freedom. Same goes in religion. A single god can be viewed as male, or as female. A single god can be considered spiritual only. A single god may have existed before the Big Bang and as a consequence does no longer exist: we and the universe are then the remnants. Multiple gods may exists, organized like stars, planets and what not.

The last one, atheism, is also a religion. One cannot know that god(s) do(es) not exist, the only way to get to atheism is by believing it: one has to believe it/he/she/them do(es) not exist. An atheist is still a believer.

The platform of believing knows three structures: a single god (still or no longer in existence), multiple gods, and no god. To ask for proof is asking for proof of any of these possible versions. It is not possible to prove there is no god - it is not possible to distinguish evidence on nature to belong to no god/ a single god/ multiple gods.

In religion there is one more platform: that of the agnostics. They state they cannot know one way or the other. So, they cut out the discussion altogether. However, believing is a human option, and sometimes when we sit in a horrible situation, the only way to make it out okay is by believing (in ourselves, in the goodness of others, in god(s) or whatever). Believing is important; the outcome may get changed (positively/negatively) because of it.

In science we do not have four structures available to us, but only two. Either everything can be placed in a single unified field theory, or everything cannot be placed in a single unified field theory. Either there is a single principle (everything comes forth directly out of one) or there are at least two principles (everything comes forth out of at least a single degree of separation). The other two structures available in religion don't work in science. It is silly to say that our universe does not exist (if you want to say it, okay, go right ahead), nor will anyone take a person seriously who states that one cannot know whether matter exists or not. See? Science and religion belong to different platforms.

Proof of god can only be found on the inside. Discussion about what you find and how undeniably all-important it is can never be considered proof in a scientific way, only in a religious way. Is god out there? Always, but god can be male, female, alive, dead, singular, multiple, all of us, nobody of us, existing outside of matter, or existing only on the inside of matter. Bon voyage.
 
  • #225
Gokul43201
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I think omnipotence leads to logical contradictions, in the same way that time travel does. That is one of the problems I have with accepting the existence of an omnipotent being.

If someone can lay down the axioms of a system of logic where omnipotence does not result in inconsistencies, that will help open me up to the possibility of the existence of an omnipotent being.

Tigron-X, cut out the holier than thou attitude if you want to contribute to this discussion meaningfully. You've shown that you don't possess a sense of humor. So, at least stick to the topic of discussion. This is not a forum for you to preach.
 

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