What's your opinion about: the withdrawl of american troops from Iraq?

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russ_watters
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Smurf said:
Overview of the American Empire
and Project for the new American Century
Did you even read that first link of yours? If the US gov't is trying to build a global empire, they're doing a pretty lousy job - they've been going backwards for 50 years.

Smurf, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, hoping you weren't referring to the standard old absurd conspiracy theory re: the-slowest-global-domination-scheme-in-history. I guess I was wrong.

The legacy of the Marshall Plan is this: A stable and prosperous Western Europe that hasn't had an internal war in 50 years - for the first time ever. I am very much in favor of extending that.

This idea didn't originate with the Marshall Plan either - its roots began with Woodrow Wilson in 1917, when he asked for a declaration of war to enter WWI to "make the world safe for democracy." His plan following WWI was absolutely absurd - forgive and rebuild your enemy, then grant him membership in a new global diplomatic organization. The world wasn't ready for his idea yet and the result was WWII. After WWII, the idea was implimented and the result is the absolutely unprecidented 60 years of peace and prosperity in the western world. Its gone so far that many western countries, including some of the most powerful, are dismantling their militaries. Again, this is unprecidented in the history of the world.

Yes, its ludicrous, I know - but I sure hope this insanity continues.
 
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When I refer to the 'American Empire' I refer not only to the 50 states of America its self but also it's territories and commonwealths such as Puerto Rico and the Mariana Islands, along with it's various political and economic influences throughout the world especially in South America and, now, throughout the Middle East.
I do not mean to imply that America is slowly trying to take over the world throughout several millenia. There were many stages in America's coming to it's stage of world power, such as, you've seen in the link, the attempt to create an Empire on par with those of Europe of the time resulting in the Louisiana and Alaska purchase. I do not think that there is any relation between this and the current events of Wolfowitz and Bushes, and I am in no way implying they are all linked by a single world domination scheme.
 
  • #29
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Russ,

Whether it's the complete and total mischaracterization of Bush's SOTU speech "Some say we must wait until the threat is imminent..." followed by here is why we can't as 'Bush told us the threat was imminent,' or the current 'Let's cut and run --yet again -- at the first sign of adversity before this effort actually succeeds, leaving Iraq in chaos with no alternative plan of action because such an insane act would serve only the political ends of the radical fringe in this country, the depths to which the radical left will stoop to trash the interests of the US and support the interests of tyrranny and chaos and mayhem abroad knows no limits. It's all for a really, really good cause; theirs.

Here's a shocking revelation; the radical left in this country wants to see the US torn apart, torn down, and rebuilt in their pet Soc. grad student thesis image of perfection. If they have to forcefully voice an irrational point of view that says torture in Iraq and Saddam left holding that nation in thrall was preferable to the pain and effort of policing up the radical fringe still scurrying and murdering in the cracks of that country, well, so be it, as long as the absolute only upside anyone can find in all of that is political.

Their current argument goes something like this: the cost of enforcing the law and peace in whatever quadrant of D.C., Detroit, Philadelphia, or NY that is appropriate often results in the deaths of policemen who have sons and daughters and wives. Count the bodies. How long can we let that go on? Look at their funerals; we'll zoom the cameras in for you to get a real good look. Look at the tears of the widows and the orphans on those CNN specials. What human being can justify all that sorrow? Get them out of there NOW. Surrender all civil efforts at forcefully defending the peace to the thugs and criminals and tyrants of the world. Why, just give peace a chance.

They would have, and did, and still do make the same argument about WWII.

The alternatives they suggest are: nonexistent. The helpful advice they offer to make the world a better place is: not this way. The better solutions they outline to allow the fence sitters to make an informed decisions is: Bush is an idiot.

The opposition is totally and completely bankrupt, bereft of ideas, in love only with their hatred of Bush. They are America's Palestinians. Next step has got to be them strapping C4 to their chest; it's only a matter of time.
 
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Bilal said:
American murdered since the occupation around 100000 Iraqi civilians. Their old puppet regime (Saddam) murdered 300000 Iraqi (even not all civilians). I think Saddam still worse than American … lets wait another to years , when the Iraqi victims became more than 300000 … may be they will accept tow withdraw partially leaving several large military bases, puppet dictator regime (another modified Saddam) and large security group willing to murder any Iraqi who oppose the new government .
Bilal,

Those arrayed against 'us' in Iraq are not just attacking 'us.' They are attacking Iraqi citizens. They are killing innocents and telling the world, 'if you don't give us what we want, we will continue to kill innocents, so ***** up.'

Given the leverage that tactic provides, it is an excceedingly small fringe of **** fighters that are generating the headlines.

Now, you, I, each of us, have to examine as best we can the motivations and tactics of those involved in this struggle and choose.


The politicos will bring their petty politics to the top of the pile and let that trump all other considerations, to the point of making up fantastic claims about 'Iraqi Freedom Fighters' and US troopers bayoneting babies for Mobil Oil and Haliburton profits. But the fact is, it is not US troops purposely and by design targeting Iraqi civilians, the UN, the Red Cross, the Iraqi Interim Council, and other civil authorities trying to make life better for the Iraqi people; it is tiny fringe of miscreants who have pulled out all the stops and who are using any means necessary in the Holy pursuit of that which they want, which is, once again control over a nation in thrall by a few via torture and murder and mayhem, in other words, the continuation of the same tactics they used before we arrived to realize political control of that country.

This IS about the use of raw power, in both instances. This IS a once political struggle that has waned megapolitical. In that waning has been exposed the truth about the nature of the two combatants via the tactics and victims they are eager and willing to create. So, observe as best you can, and choose. There is no middle ground, not even the mythical once fairyland of staying safely across the sea and pretending that because we didn't see it, it wasn't occurring. The evidence is too plentiful, but deny it if you ultimately must. We can't fix every ****fight; true. We can't right every wrong; true. There are worse murdering savage sadists in the world; true. And, none of that negates the fact that we are in a position to do something about this ****fight other then pretend it wasn't going on before we arrived. The argument for surrendering the great majority of the Iraqi people, once again, to a tiny handful of megapolitical thugs is exactly what? That this is a hard task? That it is better to live in a world where nobody safely gives a ****?


What, precisely, is the argument in favor of '***** up' when confronted by megapolitical thugs?
 
  • #31
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Zlex said:
Bilal,

Those arrayed against 'us' in Iraq are not just attacking 'us.' They are attacking Iraqi citizens. They are killing innocents and telling the world, 'if you don't give us what we want, we will continue to kill innocents, so ***** up.'

Given the leverage that tactic provides, it is an excceedingly small fringe of **** fighters that are generating the headlines.

Now, you, I, each of us, have to examine as best we can the motivations and tactics of those involved in this struggle and choose.
This would be the infalliable "They're worse so we're OK" argument.

Too bad it's not true.
 
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The whole fuss about killing civilians is so ignorant. You're looking at this in a Western Army vs Army context but applying it to people who arn't part of any militarized group.

ci·vil·ian (s-vlyn)
n.
1. A person following the pursuits of civil life, especially one who is not an active member of the military or police.
2. A specialist in Roman or civil law.

They are civilians, these are civilians killing other civilians. They're not another Foreign enemy to deplore, this is in fact a civil war, stop looking at it like Us vs. Them. That's not it, technically you could even call them criminals.
 
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Smurf said:
They are civilians, these are civilians killing other civilians. They're not another Foreign enemy to deplore, this is in fact a civil war, stop looking at it like Us vs. Them. That's not it, technically you could even call them criminals.
So, in essence, the lesson we're supposed to learn from all this barely hidden glee is, say some miscreant and a group of his toady thugs wants to take over NYC, Baltimore, Phila, or DC.

All he has to do is, use "guerilla" tactics, and there would be folks shrilly screaming at the top of their lungs(when it is safe to do so)that we should pull out the police, run, hide, cower in the dark, etc.

I get it, the point is clear; when faced with thuggery, run.

That's some better plan. Got anything else?
 
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It's funny how you talk about Iraq and compare it as if it's already the 51st state. :smile:
 
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Smurf said:
It's funny how you talk about Iraq and compare it as if it's already the 51st state. :smile:
Hey, you're the one who compared them to criminals.

NORWICH, Vt. -- A driver accused of running down and killing a Vermont state trooper is now facing murder charges.

Eric Daley, 23, of New Hampshire, was charged with second degree murder at a hearing Monday.

Drug charges were also filed against him.

Daley pleaded not guilty to lesser charges in June.

Police say Daley was running from police when he hit and killed Sgt. Michael Johnson in Norwich, Vt., in June.

Johnson was laying down spike strips on Interstate 91 to stop Daley. Police say Daley then took off and was captured a couple of days later in Pennsylvania.

OK, all you chickenhawk heartless bastards out there still advocating that we send cops out to enforce laws and protect the peace, I want you to look into the eyes of those kids and tell them, "We send folks like your daddy out to die because..."

Well, ****it Smurf you're right; let's bring all the cops safely 'home,' no more flag draped coffins, no more teary holidays. Far be it from me to dip my lame little politico hands into their blood and agony and sorrow to make my cheap little in-ter-net points.

Hey, I'm just getting into the spirit of things here. If cheap, gutless and spineless is the lingua fracta of political debate, I figured I'd better bone up.

Oh, but cops are different, and this was for a really good cause; the guy was speeding. It's not at all like going after patriots in Iraq, who only want to continue their unique Olympic training unimpeded.
 
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Zlex said:
Hey, you're the one who compared them to criminals.
The entire point of that post is that Iraq is NOT a western nation, let alone the 51st state and it shouldn't be treated as such, my comment on criminals was just a technicality.
 
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I don't agree with you because...

Smurf said:
I disagree, I think there's a strong possibility that Militant groups may ultimatly be ousted by a rising dictator (probably supported by the west).

But the fact is, this is something new for the US, bush is preping the world for his new world order and iraq is the testing ground. I think these next 4 years are going to be very interesting, good or bad, very interesting.
==========================================================
what the **** are you talking about there are people dying there, because of the personal interest of George W. Bush? who cares of the new world you think that is being prepared, what if you had any relative of yours there and from moment to moment would be risking his/her life? I am not against the Bush politics but, I am against war and the death of innocent people...
 
  • #38
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I partcially agree with you, Zlex, but let try to be more resonable, Peace is better for everybody ISN'T IT...
 
  • #39
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Regarding those who think they know what is relative and absolute?

selfAdjoint said:
Facts are absolute, if they can be found. "Truth" is in the eye of the believer.
You should know my friend that: everything is relative, except one think, The only think that is absolute is that everything is relative...
 
  • #40
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America will withdraw from Iraq it is just a matter of Time?

scienceguy said:
America can never withdraw from Iraq, we're already in it too deep and once we leave, it'll provide for a safe haven for terrorists to terrorize the world.
You should see the prices of petrol and their increas in orde to talk of the side-effects that the war is having on everybodys life...
 

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