Where Did the Energy from Early Universe Radiation Go?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the fate of energy from early universe radiation, particularly the transition from a radiation-dominated universe to one where matter predominates. Participants explore concepts related to energy conservation, redshift, and the implications of general relativity on energy dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that early universe energy was primarily in radiation, while now it is mostly in matter, questioning where the energy went.
  • Another participant suggests that a significant portion of the energy transformed into matter.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes that most energy in the universe is in dark matter and dark energy, with familiar matter being less dominant.
  • It is mentioned that the energy density of radiation decreases more rapidly than that of matter due to redshift effects, leading to a shift in energy dominance.
  • A participant raises a concern about energy conservation, questioning whether the total energy in photons decreases or if the number of photons increases as the universe expands.
  • One participant clarifies that energy is not conserved in the traditional sense in general relativity, but rather energy-momentum is conserved.
  • Another participant agrees, stating that as the universe expands, total energy decreases, which aligns with the principles of general relativity.
  • A later reply discusses the work done by expanding space on photons, relating it to the first law of thermodynamics and providing a mathematical derivation of energy density evolution.
  • One participant speculates on the implications of a potential future collapse of the universe, suggesting that energy conservation might manifest differently in such a scenario.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on energy conservation in the context of general relativity, with some asserting that energy is not conserved while others explore the implications of energy dynamics during cosmic expansion and potential collapse. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of energy transformation and conservation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of energy conservation in general relativity, highlighting that traditional notions of energy conservation may not apply in an expanding universe. There are also references to mathematical expressions that describe energy density evolution, which may depend on specific assumptions about the universe's composition and dynamics.

aludwig
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I am a newbie to cosmology, and have just finished reading "The first three minutes" by Weinberg. On page 76 he relates that in the early universe almost all of the energy was in radiation (photons), and relatively little in matter (the masses of the nuclear particles). But now most of the energy is in matter. I assume the amount of energy in matter remained fairly constant. Is this correct, and if so, again assuming energy is conserved, where did all of the energy in the early radiation go to?
 
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A lot of it went into creating matter.
 
A couple of points to note. The first is that according to current theory, most of the energy in the Universe is not in fact in the form of nuclear particles. In fact 96% of the total energy is in the exotic forms we call dark matter and dark energy.

That aside, it is still true that there is far more energy in the form of familiar matter (neutron,protons,electrons mainly) than radiation today. The reason for this is that the energy of photons diminishes as the universe expands due to being redshifted. Formally the energy density of matter evolves with the size of the Universe (which we denoted by the 'scale factor' [tex]a(t)[/tex]) as:

[tex]\rho_m \sim a^{-3}[/tex]

If you think about this for a moment this is simply what you get by keeping the energy per particle constant, total number of particles constant but increasing the volume. So if we note the [tex]V \sim a^{3}[/tex] then the above expression becomes

[tex]\rho_m \sim \frac{1}{V}[/tex].

Now, for photons we also have the redshift. This means that the energy per particle does not stay constant, but changes as

[tex]E = E_0\frac{a_0}{a}[/tex]

this means that the energy density of radiation evolves as

[tex]\rho_rad \sim a^{-4}[/tex]

Since radiation energy density decays more rapidly with [tex]a(t)[/tex] than matter it means that even though initially there was more energy in radiation, the expansion of the Universe has caused there to now be much more energy density in matter.
 
Thanks for the replies. I am familiar with the red-shift, which Weinberg also discusses, and why this would effect density. But Weinberg refers to total energy, not density. If the energy per photon decreases, either the total energy in all photons decreases, or the number of photons increases. If it is the former, then I still don't see how energy is conserved. If it is going into new matter, what particles are being created, and what is the process?
 
Energy is not generally conserved in GR; GR conserves energy-momentum which is significantly different.

Garth
 
Yep 'Energy' is a 3D quantity. We shouldn't bee too surprised to find that it is not conserved in GR. So as the Universe expands the total energy does indeed decrease.
 
The last result in post #3 by Wallace can be derived by "conservation of energy" in the form of the first law of thermodynamics; the photons lose energy because of the work done expanding space.

The work done is given by [itex]dW = p dV = 1/3 \rho dV,[/itex] where [itex]\rho[/itex] is the energy density of the photons and the second equality follows from the radiation equation of state [itex]p = \rho / 3.[/itex] Then, for the photons,

[tex] \begin{equation*}<br /> \begin{split}<br /> 0 &= dE + dW\\<br /> &= \frac{dE}{dt} + \frac{dW}{dt}\\<br /> &= \frac{d \left(\rho V \right)}{dt} + \frac{1}{3} \rho \frac{dV}{dt}\\<br /> &= \frac{4}{3} \rho \frac{dV}{dt} + \frac{d \rho}{dt} V\\<br /> &= \frac{4}{3} \rho \frac{d}{dt} a^3 + \frac{d \rho}{dt} a^3\\<br /> &= 4 \rho a^2 \dot{a} + \dot{\rho} a^3.<br /> \end{split}<br /> \end{equation*}[/tex]

Then,

[tex] \int^t_{t_0} \frac{\dot{\rho}}{\rho} dt' = - 4 \int^t_{t_0} \frac{\dot{a}}{a} dt'[/tex]

gives

[tex]\rho = \rho_0 \left( \frac{a_0}{a} \right)^4.[/tex]
 
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Suppose the universe mass is large enough that it eventually starts to collapse towards the big crunch. All of the photons will then be blue-shifted, with the greatest shift from the most distant stars, and it looks to me like the above equations just un-wind. So if this is correct, in this case energy really is conserved, in the form of a kind of potential energy.
 

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