Other Which branch of engineering is more physics heavy?

[questions000]

@questions000. How are you planning to fund your graduate education, including travel to a "good country" (as you call it)? In the US, students typically enter a PhD physics program after completion of a bachelor's. For a grad school that really wants you, the PhD program is fully funded: tuition waivers and financial support via scholarships, fellowships, teaching assistantships, and research assistantships ... enough to cover school supplies and living expenses. In other countries, students need to complete a master's program first and then apply for a PhD program. At some schools, applying for a PhD program is the same as applying for a job. That then leaves the issue of funding for the master's program. Have you looked into that?

My first plan is to try and get a good score in PGRE and then try to get into phd in low average usa univeristy so i have better chance. It that doesnt work then i will get a masters in my country which needs very little funding in engineering physics which is a direct path for engineer graduates and then get into phd in uk or maybe australia. A problem in the 2nd choice is that the engineering physics masters is at least 3 years and not 2 because they require all students to take a prep year in which they teach stat mech . QM. Classical mech. Solid state all at undergrad level . And another problem is that most of them are applied with different degrees from univeristy to another. The best one got somewhat theoratical electives like advanced math methods and quantum field theory but still the thesis needs to be somewhat applied

 

[CrysPhys]

There are several paths to an engineering degree.

As I mentioned, while the standard 4-year engineering degree is still available in Australia, the path of completing a three-year bachelor's degree in a relevant field (typically mathematics or physics), followed by an additional 2 (or sometimes 3) years for a master's, is becoming increasingly common. In fact, if you want to do an engineering master's, there is virtually no difference between the paths you follow - a 4-year engineering degree followed by 1.5-2 years of Master's studies or the 3-2 route. In fact, the 3-2 model is sometimes quicker, allowing you to earn both a bachelor's degree in physics (or mathematics) and a master's degree in engineering. It's a way of doing both.

As another person posted, we need to know where he is from and where he wants to study.

Yjsnks
Bill

I still think you're missing the key issue. You keep discussing paths to a master's engineering degree. But the OP does not want an engineering degree; he wants a physics degree (ultimately a physics PhD). If they had their own financial resources, they would pursue a bachelor's degree in physics and then continue on to a graduate program in physics. But the OP is dependent on financial support from their family, who will not pay for a physics undergrad degree but will pay for an engineering undergrad degree. So the OP is then trying to determine the best path to transition from an undergrad engineering degree (that they don't really want, but is being foisted upon them by their family) to a grad physics program (which is what they really want, and which ideally is fully funded).

 

[CrysPhys]

May I ask what country you are from?

I ask because you really ought to be studying what you are interested in, not necessarily what your family expects you to study.

I'm not surprised. I've come across similar instances here in the US (including in my own family), highly dependent on family culture, number of generations in the US, and income level. E.g., parents (call them Gen 1) originally immigrated to the US from Country X. Their culture highly values careers in fields such as e.g. science, engineering, and medicine but does not highly value careers in fields such as e.g. art, music, and dance. The parents don't make all that much money but they will work like crazy day and night and scrimp and save to send their children (call them Gen 2) to college ... as long as the children study in a field that the parents value. The children study hard, become successful, and earn a lot more money than their parents ever made. When Gen 2 have their own children (call them Gen 3), Gen 2 will have been more integrated into US cultural norms, will appreciate the value in pursuing diverse fields, and more importantly, will have the financial resources to allow Gen 3 to pursue fields that Gen 1 had considered frivolous. If this high-level discussion is too vague and abstract, I can supply more concrete examples.

 

[CrysPhys]

My first plan is to try and get a good score in PGRE and then try to get into phd in low average usa univeristy so i have better chance. It that doesnt work then i will get a masters in my country which needs very little funding in engineering physics which is a direct path for engineer graduates and then get into phd in uk or maybe australia. A problem in the 2nd choice is that the engineering physics masters is at least 3 years and not 2 because they require all students to take a prep year in which they teach stat mech . QM. Classical mech. Solid state all at undergrad level . And another problem is that most of them are applied with different degrees from univeristy to another. The best one got somewhat theoratical electives like advanced math methods and quantum field theory but still the thesis needs to be somewhat applied

You may have another problem with the second option. Will your engineering master's provide you with a strong enough background to be competitive for a non-US PhD program? In the US, when you apply for a PhD program, you apply for admission to the graduate school and later work for a research advisor (in some schools, this doesn't happen until after you pass the qualifying exams). You often have the option of exploring opportunities with various research advisors who have openings. But outside the US, as I mentioned above, research advisors often post openings in their groups as job posts (probably varies with country and particular school). You apply for a specific job post. That means you have to be competitive for particular job posts. So check carefully what PhD positions outside your country will an engineering physics master's from a school in your country prepare you for.

 

[questions000]

You may have another problem with the second option. Will your engineering master's provide you with a strong enough background to be competitive for a non-US PhD program? In the US, when you apply for a PhD program, you apply for admission to the graduate school and later work for a research advisor (in some schools, this doesn't happen until after you pass the qualifying exams). You often have the option of exploring opportunities with various research advisors who have openings. But outside the US, as I mentioned above, research advisors often post openings in their groups as job posts (probably varies with country and particular school). You apply for a specific job post. That means you have to be competitive for particular job posts. So check carefully what PhD positions outside your country will an engineering physics master's from a school in your country prepare you for.

I think it wouldnt be impossible to get into a phd in average univeristy if i try with alot of admissions no? An engineering physics masters can include electives in heavy physics topics like QFT and advanced math like differential geometry. Many-body theory these are the most theoratical electives. More applied but still physics electives would be quantum information and computers. So either way i think it contains alot of deep physics enough to qualify me to a phd in physics rather than engineering. But thats just my opinion correct me if im wrong.

 

[bhobba]

But the OP does not want an engineering degree; he wants a physicSo the OP is then trying to determine the best path to transition from an undergrad engineering degree (that they don't really want, but is being foisted upon them by their family) to a grad physics program (which is what they really want, and which ideally is fully funded).

Agreed.

I was detailing an option that satisfies both goals. After completing the Master's in Engineering, the OP can pursue a PhD in physics. A suitable choice of a master's would be software engineering, which, although not directly related to Physics, is a valuable skill for a physicist to possess

I must also mention that the OP is not the only person in history to face this dilemma. So did the great John von Neumann. His father wanted John to follow him into industry, and asked a family acquaintance to persuade his son not to take mathematics. Von Neumann and his father decided that the best career path was chemical engineering. It was not something that von Neumann had much knowledge of, so it was arranged for him to take a two-year, non-degree course in chemistry at the University of Berlin, after which he sat for the entrance exam to ETH Zurich, which, being the uber genius he was, he easily passed in September 1923. Simultaneously, von Neumann entered the University of Budapest as a Ph.D. candidate in mathematics. Later, of course, he made significant contributions to QM, which is, of course, significant to modern Chemical Engineering. Of course, only someone of von Neumann's calibre could do both simultaneously.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

Perhaps there is a more effective way to address the issue.

First, get your Engineering degree. Then, obtain a Master's degree in Physics. Entrance requirements only require any degree at the University of Queensland near where I live (ranked 42 in the world - they slipped a bit - they were in the 30s last time I looked):
https://study.uq.edu.au/study-options/programs/master-science-5712#entry-requirements

If I remember correctly, having a Master's degree reduces the time required to complete a PhD by about a year.

Several years ago, I rang them about doing a PhD in Physics (foundations of QM).

My undergraduate degree is in mathematics, and I was advised to pursue a Master's in Applied Mathematics, and they would guide me in selecting subjects to meet the entrance requirements for the PhD. Perhaps the OP could contact the university he would like to attend for his PhD and obtain their advice on the best way to be admitted to a PhD program after completing an engineering degree, as well as which engineering degree would be most suitable.

Just another idea to consider.

Thanks
Bill

 

[gwnorth]

May I ask what country you are from?

I ask because you really ought to be studying what you are interested in, not necessarily what your family expects you to study.

In an ideal world perhaps but that's a very western centric viewpoint and I suspect that the OP is not from a western country. Even many students from western countries face pressure from family to pursue educational pathways they don't particular want to follow. Expecting an 18 year old to defy their parents' wishes is unrealistic considering that most undergraduates still rely on them for financial support. It also raises the specter of potentially needing to make a complete break with the family should the student choose to disregard their parents' wishes. Even many older adults have difficulties defying their parents.

I think we should take the OP at their word that choosing a non-Engineering pathway for their undergraduate studies is not an option. The issue then becomes is there a pathway the OP could follow that would allow them to satisfy their parents' dictates to study Engineering for their undergraduate degree, but still keeps the door open to be able to pursue Physics at the graduate level.

 

[gwnorth]

I think it wouldnt be impossible to get into a phd in average univeristy if i try with alot of admissions no?

Applying to more programs is not going to increase your chances of admission if your background preparation is not suitable. You need to determine what qualifications are necessary and find a way to meet them. BTW admission to a PhD in Physics in the US, even at an "average" university is going to require relevant research experience.

Your best option I think is to find Physics research master's programs that will admit you with an Engineering background and that will allow you to make up the deficiencies in your coursework. After that you'll be more likely to be able to secure a PhD admission. You also need to be prepared to potentially have to pay out of pocket for some or all of the cost of that master's degree, though in some countries research master's do provide some funding (Canada for example).

 

[questions000]

Applying to more programs is not going to increase your chances of admission if your background preparation is not suitable. You need to determine what qualifications are necessary and find a way to meet them. BTW admission to a PhD in Physics in the US, even at an "average" university is going to require relevant research experience.

Your best option I think is to find Physics research master's programs that will admit you with an Engineering background and that will allow you to make up the deficiencies in your coursework. After that you'll be more likely to be able to secure a PhD admission. You also need to be prepared to potentially have to pay out of pocket for some or all of the cost of that master's degree, though in some countries research master's do provide some funding (Canada for example).

The qualifications needed are strong math background and physics in : QM . stat mech . Classical mech . E&M. Now in my engineering degree i will get the math and E&M . But i have 0 knowledge in classical mech and only introductory QM and no stat mech. I have no problem in self learning these but i dont know how to prove it in my admission . Im thinking PGRE is a way to prove but now i see some people saying its not that vaulable. And also how is research experience a requirement for phd in usa if the phd is after bachelor?

 

[CrysPhys]

I think it wouldnt be impossible to get into a phd in average univeristy if i try with alot of admissions no? An engineering physics masters can include electives in heavy physics topics like QFT and advanced math like differential geometry. Many-body theory these are the most theoratical electives. More applied but still physics electives would be quantum information and computers. So either way i think it contains alot of deep physics enough to qualify me to a phd in physics rather than engineering. But thats just my opinion correct me if im wrong.

This can't be answered without a lot more specific details about your personal situation. Without probing into them, here are some key factors:

* A lot will depend on the specific area of research that you will wish to pursue your physics PhD in. E.g., experimental solid state vs theoretical cosmology. There will likely be a lot more openings (but also likely more applicants) for experimental solid state than theoretical cosmology. An engineering background would be a lot more useful in experimental solid state than in theoretical cosmology. So at this point, is your heart fixed on a specific area of research, or do you need to wait and see?

* Suppose you apply for a PhD program with Professor P in Country C. Will Prof. P be familiar with your home university (and in particular, with the engineering master's program there)? If Prof. P is familiar with it, will their opinion of it be plus, minus, or neutral? If Prof. P is not familiar with it, will they spend time researching it, or will they simply trash your application; particularly if they have a pile of applications from universities that they are familiar with and which they do regard highly? Does Prof. P's program have funding for foreign students, or is funding restricted to nationals of Country C? Will Country C issue you a visa to study there?

* My advice is that about a year before you finish your undergrad degree, you should develop a candidate list of professors and universities and get in touch with them to see what your options would be ... before you spend 3 yrs on getting an engineering physics master's at your home university.

 

[CrysPhys]

And also how is research experience a requirement for phd in usa if the phd is after bachelor?

Research experience may not be technically a requirement, but you will be competing against applicants who do have undergrad research experience.. As I've mentioned before, it's not sufficient to simply meet requirements; you need a strong showing why you should be selected over other applicants (you really need to start thinking like this). In the US, some schools have undergrad research programs in which students can do research for course credit or pay, either during the academic year or during the summer. Some schools also either require a bachelor's thesis for a degree or make one optional (e.g., for an honors program). And there are also various programs such as the NSF REU (https://www.nsf.gov/funding/initiatives/reu) and internships in private industry.

 

[questions000]

This can't be answered without a lot more specific details about your personal situation. Without probing into them, here are some key factors:

* A lot will depend on the specific area of research that you will wish to pursue your physics PhD in. E.g., experimental solid state vs theoretical cosmology. There will likely be a lot more openings (but also likely more applicants) for experimental solid state than theoretical cosmology. An engineering background would be a lot more useful in experimental solid state than in theoretical cosmology. So at this point, is your heart fixed on a specific area of research, or do you need to wait and see?

* Suppose you apply for a PhD program with Professor P in Country C. Will Prof. P be familiar with your home university (and in particular, with the engineering master's program there)? If Prof. P is familiar with it, will their opinion of it be plus, minus, or neutral? If Prof. P is not familiar with it, will they spend time researching it, or will they simply trash your application; particularly if they have a pile of applications from universities that they are familiar with and which they do regard highly? Does Prof. P's program have funding for foreign students, or is funding restricted to nationals of Country C? Will Country C issue you a visa to study there?

* My advice is that about a year before you finish your undergrad degree, you should develop a candidate list of professors and universities and get in touch with them to see what your options would be ... before you spend 3 yrs on getting an engineering physics master's at your home university.

Im mostly interested about particle phyics ( expermental or theoratical ) and theoratical solid state.
And in your 2nd point doesnt that mean that my chances are close to 0 anyways? If the professors are not going to waste time to research about the program then that makes the chance i get into a phd is zero. Since in paper the program got the word engineering in it giving the feeling that it might be lacking in physics content compared to engineering one plus that its not from a well known univeristy say not at least in the top 100

 

[CrysPhys]

Im mostly interested about particle phyics ( expermental or theoratical ) and theoratical solid state.
And in your 2nd point doesnt that mean that my chances are close to 0 anyways? If the professors are not going to waste time to research about the program then that makes the chance i get into a phd is zero. Since in paper the program got the word engineering in it giving the feeling that it might be lacking in physics content compared to engineering one plus that its not from a well known univeristy say not at least in the top 100

It looks like you are finally facing reality. It's a good time to revisit what I previously wrote:

But so far the responses you have received are along the lines of, "The path you are pursuing will not get you to your desired destination."

The engineering physics master's from your home university by itself doesn't look like a good path. You would need, e.g., at least to collaborate with an established physics researcher with contacts in suitable universities. Someone who would reach out to professors and vouch for you. Something extra along those lines.

Your best option I think is to find Physics research master's programs that will admit you with an Engineering background and that will allow you to make up the deficiencies in your coursework. After that you'll be more likely to be able to secure a PhD admission. You also need to be prepared to potentially have to pay out of pocket for some or all of the cost of that master's degree, though in some countries research master's do provide some funding (Canada for example).

I agree that this would probably be the best option if you can somehow get the financial resources. If you can't, you are caught in an over-constrained problem, a problem without a solution since you can't simultaneously satisfy all the constraints.