Other Which branch of engineering is more physics heavy?

[Frabjous]

Not having a plan B is stupid.
1) Around 10% of PhD’s get academic positions. There is a bias towards high prestige schools in these hirings (which given your non-standard route will be harder for you to get into). Many of these positions are not at research universities. Non-tenure positions can be a hard life. The post-doc process is also difficult.
2) Only about 15% of physics undergraduates eventually receive a PhD.
3) Over 50% of undergraduates drop Physics as a major.
4) So your current plan has a 0.75% chance of success.
5) Let’s say my numbers are wrong. Double each of them. You get the still tiny 6%.
6) This ignores the additional risks with pursuing a non-standard route.

My advice is choose an engineering degree that matches your interests. If you decide to go to graduate school, go to school in engineering. As a PhD physicist, I see see interesting science in both of the curricula.

That being said, if you insist on doing things your own way, from looking at the curricula, NE supplemented by additional physics classes probably has a better chance.

 

[questions000]

Not having a plan B is stupid.
1) Around 10% of PhD’s get academic positions. There is a bias towards high prestige schools in these hirings (which given your non-standard route will be harder for you to get into). Many of these positions are not at research universities. Non-tenure positions can be a hard life. The post-doc process is also difficult.
2) Only about 15% of physics undergraduates eventually receive a PhD.
3) Over 50% of undergraduates drop Physics as a major.
4) So your current plan has a 0.75% chance of success.
5) Let’s say my numbers are wrong. Double each of them. You get the still tiny 6%.
6) This ignores the additional risks with pursuing a non-standard route.

My advice is choose an engineering degree that matches your interests. If you decide to go to graduate school, go to school in engineering. As a PhD physicist, I see see interesting science in both of the curricula.

That being said, if you insist on doing things your own way, from looking at the curricula, NE supplemented by additional physics classes probably has a better chance.

Ok thanks. May i also ask what additions are needed the most incase of NE? what i can see needed is statistical mechanics and some more depth in QM but i suspect some other things will be lacking

 

[Frabjous]

It is too hard to say without knowing at what level the courses are taught and what is offered in the physics department. This is what academic advisors are for.

Most people put themselves on paths that give them options. You are placing yourself on a singular path defined by a low probability end goal. Is the ‘future you’ going to be happy with the decisions that you are making now? Why are you denying ‘future you’ any agency? Most people get wiser with age. Why are you assuming that you are currently at peak wisdom? If your plan fails, will you be happy being a nuclear engineer? (These are rhetorical questions)

 

[questions000]

It is too hard to say without knowing at what level the courses are taught and what is offered in the physics department. This is what academic advisors are for.

Most people put themselves on paths that give them options. You are placing yourself on a singular path defined by a low probability end goal. Is the ‘future you’ going to be happy with the decisions that you are making now? Why are you denying ‘future you’ any agency? Most people get wiser with age. Why are you assuming that you are currently at peak wisdom? If your plan fails, will you be happy being a nuclear engineer? (These are rhetorical questions)

Most people dont get wiser by age. It doesnt work like that. Some get wiser and some get dumber ( i saw it with my own eye. A math teacher whos a friend to my father became flat earther later at life) . And also alot of people stay and dont realy change their opinions about life. And also even if the chance that i get accepted into good masters in physics is slim even if it didnt happen that doesnt mean the only option left is to work at industry. I still can get into engineering physics master in my country and then go for phd in just physics. This 2nd option is very achievable because all i need to get into native masters is somewhat good gpa and thats it

 

[gwnorth]

As others have said EE and Nuclear Engineering are probably the closest Engineering disciplines to an undergraduate degree in Physics barring Engineering Physics. Even so there are core Physics courses that are not covered under a typical Engineering curriculum, the most notable being Quantum Mechanics.

It is possible that you could find a Physics master's program in the US that would be willing to admit you and allow you to take courses to make up for your deficiencies. Alternatively you could look for post-bacc/pre-master's programs to help fill the gap. You'd probably be more successful targeting experimental programs than theory.

BTW, the reason I specify the US is because you don't typically need a master's degree to get admitted to a PhD in the US, so doing a master's first is less common. This means that master's programs may be a bit less restrictive with regards to the required undergraduate preparation necessary for admission. In countries where a master's is needed first, they may be more restrictive with their admission criteria. Also, if you want to be able to progress to a PhD, the master's you do should be research/thesis based. These are less common in the US though.

In a related note, what will your funding situation be? I'm assuming that since your parents are forcing you to pursue Engineering against your will they will not be aiding you to fund graduate studies in Physics. Most master's and pre-master's programs are going to require you to pay out of pocket. A PhD should provide funding however.

 

[questions000]

As others have said EE and Nuclear Engineering are probably the closest Engineering disciplines to an undergraduate degree in Physics barring Engineering Physics. Even so there are core Physics courses that are not covered under a typical Engineering curriculum, the most notable being Quantum Mechanics.

It is possible that you could find a Physics master's program in the US that would be willing to admit you and allow you to take courses to make up for your deficiencies. Alternatively you could look for post-bacc/pre-master's programs to help fill the gap. You'd probably be more successful targeting experimental programs than theory.

BTW, the reason I specify the US is because you don't typically need a master's degree to get admitted to a PhD in the US, so doing a master's first is less common. This means that master's programs may be a bit less restrictive with regards to the required undergraduate preparation necessary for admission. In countries where a master's is needed first, they may be more restrictive with their admission criteria. Also, if you want to be able to progress to a PhD, the master's you do should be research/thesis based. These are less common in the US though.

In a related note, what will your funding situation be? I'm assuming that since your parents are forcing you to pursue Engineering against your will they will not be aiding you to fund graduate studies in Physics. Most master's and pre-master's programs are going to require you to pay out of pocket. A PhD should provide funding however.

what if i self studied QM and maybe statistical mech. Would i have a chance in getting into a phd? And is it even possible to self study them

 

[gwnorth]

Self-study is not typically considered acceptable. You could try to fill the gap with online courses. Writing the PGRE could also potentially help.

 

[questions000]

Self-study is not typically considered acceptable. You could try to fill the gap with online courses. Writing the PGRE could also potentially help.

Yeah i plan on studying for a good PGRE score. But what is the difference between self study and online courses. I dont think an online certificate is worth anything in admission. In the end both will be shown in form of PGRE score no?

 

[Choppy]

Yeah i plan on studying for a good PGRE score. But what is the difference between self study and online courses. I dont think an online certificate is worth anything in admission. In the end both will be shown in form of PGRE score no?

The problem with self study is that there's no evidence that you completed a full curriculum, and no record of feedback or evaluation on that material. Anyone can say they've self-studied a subject. Sure, occasionally you'll find someone who actually has gone through all the problems in a series of textbooks, cover-to-cover, solved them and managed to fill in holes. Far more often though, you'll find people who believe they've covered a topic because they've read the fun stuff and solved a handful of problems, but then really struggle with it when presented with graduate-level coursework.

When you're on an admissions committee and you only have some many spots available to fill, you tend to favour the candidates who have formally covered the prerequisite material.

When it comes to online courses... a lot depends on the details. There are many good universities that offer online learning options these days. There are also many not-so-good ones. The good ones tend to be accepted on par with in-person courses. The not-so-good ones are not. Sometimes it can be challenging to separate them, but one tip if you're considering this direction it to do some research on the specific online program you're looking at and find out if their graduates are getting into the schools you're interested in.

The PGRE is not commonly accepted as a substitute for core physics coursework. More frequently in my experience, it's used as a normalizer, particularly when people on the admissions committee are not familiar with your school.

 

[questions000]

The problem with self study is that there's no evidence that you completed a full curriculum, and no record of feedback or evaluation on that material. Anyone can say they've self-studied a subject. Sure, occasionally you'll find someone who actually has gone through all the problems in a series of textbooks, cover-to-cover, solved them and managed to fill in holes. Far more often though, you'll find people who believe they've covered a topic because they've read the fun stuff and solved a handful of problems, but then really struggle with it when presented with graduate-level coursework.

When you're on an admissions committee and you only have some many spots available to fill, you tend to favour the candidates who have formally covered the prerequisite material.

When it comes to online courses... a lot depends on the details. There are many good universities that offer online learning options these days. There are also many not-so-good ones. The good ones tend to be accepted on par with in-person courses. The not-so-good ones are not. Sometimes it can be challenging to separate them, but one tip if you're considering this direction it to do some research on the specific online program you're looking at and find out if their graduates are getting into the schools you're interested in.

The PGRE is not commonly accepted as a substitute for core physics coursework. More frequently in my experience, it's used as a normalizer, particularly when people on the admissions committee are not familiar with your school.

then where do i find the good online courses?

 

[bhobba]

Forced by family. Happens more than you think outside of 1st world countrys

Here in Australia, they are switching to a model where you complete a 3-year Bachelors degree, followed by 2 years in a Master's program, for that very reason. Physics, of course, is a relevant undergraduate degree, as is math, and Computer Science for Computer Engineering. Many people pursue engineering not because they are drawn to it, but because of the job prospects. It is simply recognising the reality, and of course, a Master's looks more impressive.

In the US, you can pursue one of those 3+2 engineering degrees, where the 2-year Master's program is replaced by 2 years at the engineering school. Many schools offer that, my favourite is Georgia Tech:
https://admission.gatech.edu/transfer/dual-degree-pathway

They may have something similar in your area. You can always come to Aus for your Master's - we are in the top 3 for overseas student destinations.

Thanks
Bill

 

[CrysPhys]

Here in Australia, they are switching to a model where you complete a 3-year Bachelors degree, followed by 2 years in a Master's program, for that very reason.

You can always come to Aus for your Master's - we are in the top 3 for overseas student destinations.

Could you please clarify? "That very reason" according to the OP is that the OP's parents are willing to fund a bachelor's program in engineering, but not in physics. So how does having a 3-yr bachelor's followed by a 2-yr master's resolve that situation? Who pays for these programs in Australia? In particular, for foreign students?

 

[CrysPhys]

@questions000. How are you planning to fund your graduate education, including travel to a "good country" (as you call it)? In the US, students typically enter a PhD physics program after completion of a bachelor's. For a grad school that really wants you, the PhD program is fully funded: tuition waivers and financial support via scholarships, fellowships, teaching assistantships, and research assistantships ... enough to cover school supplies and living expenses. In other countries, students need to complete a master's program first and then apply for a PhD program. At some schools, applying for a PhD program is the same as applying for a job. That then leaves the issue of funding for the master's program. Have you looked into that?

 

[bhobba]

Could you please clarify? "That very reason" according to the OP is that the OP's parents are willing to fund a bachelor's program in engineering, but not in physics. So how does having a 3-yr bachelor's followed by a 2-yr master's resolve that situation? Who pays for these programs in Australia? In particular, for foreign students?

Whatever the usual process is used in his home country, it is used to get a degree in math/physics. Then he comes to Australia, but except for NZ, that will be very pricy, unfortunately.

Thahks
Bill

 

[CrysPhys]

Whatever the usual process is used in his home country, it is used to get a degree in math/physics. Then he comes to Australia, but except for NZ, that will be very pricy, unfortunately.

Thahks
Bill

<<Emphasis added.>> But the OP's family is insisting that the OP get a bachelor's degree in engineering (not math/physics). That's at the whole heart of this thread.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Forced by family. Happens more than you think outside of 1st world countrys

May I ask what country you are from?

I ask because you really ought to be studying what you are interested in, not necessarily what your family expects you to study.

 

[WWGD]

May I ask what country you are from?

I ask because you really ought to be studying what you are interested in, not necessarily what your family expects you to study.

If they do that, they should consider a side gig to fall back on. Data analysis, programming, etc.b

 

[CrysPhys]

If they do that, they should consider a side gig to fall back on. Data analysis, programming, etc.b

The OP has already replied that they are not at all interested in a Plan B.

 

[CrysPhys]

May I ask what country you are from?

I ask because you really ought to be studying what you are interested in, not necessarily what your family expects you to study.

This goes back to the key issue of who's footing the bills.

 

[bhobba]

But the OP's family is insisting that the OP get a bachelor's degree in engineering (not math/physics). That's at the whole heart of this thread.

There are several paths to an engineering degree.

As I mentioned, while the standard 4-year engineering degree is still available in Australia, the path of completing a three-year bachelor's degree in a relevant field (typically mathematics or physics), followed by an additional 2 (or sometimes 3) years for a master's, is becoming increasingly common. In fact, if you want to do an engineering master's, there is virtually no difference between the paths you follow - a 4-year engineering degree followed by 1.5-2 years of Master's studies or the 3-2 route. In fact, the 3-2 model is sometimes quicker, allowing you to earn both a bachelor's degree in physics (or mathematics) and a master's degree in engineering. It's a way of doing both.

As another person posted, we need to know where he is from and where he wants to study.

Yjsnks
Bill

 

[questions000]

@questions000. How are you planning to fund your graduate education, including travel to a "good country" (as you call it)? In the US, students typically enter a PhD physics program after completion of a bachelor's. For a grad school that really wants you, the PhD program is fully funded: tuition waivers and financial support via scholarships, fellowships, teaching assistantships, and research assistantships ... enough to cover school supplies and living expenses. In other countries, students need to complete a master's program first and then apply for a PhD program. At some schools, applying for a PhD program is the same as applying for a job. That then leaves the issue of funding for the master's program. Have you looked into that?

My first plan is to try and get a good score in PGRE and then try to get into phd in low average usa univeristy so i have better chance. It that doesnt work then i will get a masters in my country which needs very little funding in engineering physics which is a direct path for engineer graduates and then get into phd in uk or maybe australia. A problem in the 2nd choice is that the engineering physics masters is at least 3 years and not 2 because they require all students to take a prep year in which they teach stat mech . QM. Classical mech. Solid state all at undergrad level . And another problem is that most of them are applied with different degrees from univeristy to another. The best one got somewhat theoratical electives like advanced math methods and quantum field theory but still the thesis needs to be somewhat applied

 

[CrysPhys]

There are several paths to an engineering degree.

As I mentioned, while the standard 4-year engineering degree is still available in Australia, the path of completing a three-year bachelor's degree in a relevant field (typically mathematics or physics), followed by an additional 2 (or sometimes 3) years for a master's, is becoming increasingly common. In fact, if you want to do an engineering master's, there is virtually no difference between the paths you follow - a 4-year engineering degree followed by 1.5-2 years of Master's studies or the 3-2 route. In fact, the 3-2 model is sometimes quicker, allowing you to earn both a bachelor's degree in physics (or mathematics) and a master's degree in engineering. It's a way of doing both.

As another person posted, we need to know where he is from and where he wants to study.

Yjsnks
Bill

I still think you're missing the key issue. You keep discussing paths to a master's engineering degree. But the OP does not want an engineering degree; he wants a physics degree (ultimately a physics PhD). If they had their own financial resources, they would pursue a bachelor's degree in physics and then continue on to a graduate program in physics. But the OP is dependent on financial support from their family, who will not pay for a physics undergrad degree but will pay for an engineering undergrad degree. So the OP is then trying to determine the best path to transition from an undergrad engineering degree (that they don't really want, but is being foisted upon them by their family) to a grad physics program (which is what they really want, and which ideally is fully funded).

 

[CrysPhys]

May I ask what country you are from?

I ask because you really ought to be studying what you are interested in, not necessarily what your family expects you to study.

I'm not surprised. I've come across similar instances here in the US (including in my own family), highly dependent on family culture, number of generations in the US, and income level. E.g., parents (call them Gen 1) originally immigrated to the US from Country X. Their culture highly values careers in fields such as e.g. science, engineering, and medicine but does not highly value careers in fields such as e.g. art, music, and dance. The parents don't make all that much money but they will work like crazy day and night and scrimp and save to send their children (call them Gen 2) to college ... as long as the children study in a field that the parents value. The children study hard, become successful, and earn a lot more money than their parents ever made. When Gen 2 have their own children (call them Gen 3), Gen 2 will have been more integrated into US cultural norms, will appreciate the value in pursuing diverse fields, and more importantly, will have the financial resources to allow Gen 3 to pursue fields that Gen 1 had considered frivolous. If this high-level discussion is too vague and abstract, I can supply more concrete examples.

 

[CrysPhys]

My first plan is to try and get a good score in PGRE and then try to get into phd in low average usa univeristy so i have better chance. It that doesnt work then i will get a masters in my country which needs very little funding in engineering physics which is a direct path for engineer graduates and then get into phd in uk or maybe australia. A problem in the 2nd choice is that the engineering physics masters is at least 3 years and not 2 because they require all students to take a prep year in which they teach stat mech . QM. Classical mech. Solid state all at undergrad level . And another problem is that most of them are applied with different degrees from univeristy to another. The best one got somewhat theoratical electives like advanced math methods and quantum field theory but still the thesis needs to be somewhat applied

You may have another problem with the second option. Will your engineering master's provide you with a strong enough background to be competitive for a non-US PhD program? In the US, when you apply for a PhD program, you apply for admission to the graduate school and later work for a research advisor (in some schools, this doesn't happen until after you pass the qualifying exams). You often have the option of exploring opportunities with various research advisors who have openings. But outside the US, as I mentioned above, research advisors often post openings in their groups as job posts (probably varies with country and particular school). You apply for a specific job post. That means you have to be competitive for particular job posts. So check carefully what PhD positions outside your country will an engineering physics master's from a school in your country prepare you for.

 

[questions000]

You may have another problem with the second option. Will your engineering master's provide you with a strong enough background to be competitive for a non-US PhD program? In the US, when you apply for a PhD program, you apply for admission to the graduate school and later work for a research advisor (in some schools, this doesn't happen until after you pass the qualifying exams). You often have the option of exploring opportunities with various research advisors who have openings. But outside the US, as I mentioned above, research advisors often post openings in their groups as job posts (probably varies with country and particular school). You apply for a specific job post. That means you have to be competitive for particular job posts. So check carefully what PhD positions outside your country will an engineering physics master's from a school in your country prepare you for.

I think it wouldnt be impossible to get into a phd in average univeristy if i try with alot of admissions no? An engineering physics masters can include electives in heavy physics topics like QFT and advanced math like differential geometry. Many-body theory these are the most theoratical electives. More applied but still physics electives would be quantum information and computers. So either way i think it contains alot of deep physics enough to qualify me to a phd in physics rather than engineering. But thats just my opinion correct me if im wrong.

 

[bhobba]

But the OP does not want an engineering degree; he wants a physicSo the OP is then trying to determine the best path to transition from an undergrad engineering degree (that they don't really want, but is being foisted upon them by their family) to a grad physics program (which is what they really want, and which ideally is fully funded).

Agreed.

I was detailing an option that satisfies both goals. After completing the Master's in Engineering, the OP can pursue a PhD in physics. A suitable choice of a master's would be software engineering, which, although not directly related to Physics, is a valuable skill for a physicist to possess

I must also mention that the OP is not the only person in history to face this dilemma. So did the great John von Neumann. His father wanted John to follow him into industry, and asked a family acquaintance to persuade his son not to take mathematics. Von Neumann and his father decided that the best career path was chemical engineering. It was not something that von Neumann had much knowledge of, so it was arranged for him to take a two-year, non-degree course in chemistry at the University of Berlin, after which he sat for the entrance exam to ETH Zurich, which, being the uber genius he was, he easily passed in September 1923. Simultaneously, von Neumann entered the University of Budapest as a Ph.D. candidate in mathematics. Later, of course, he made significant contributions to QM, which is, of course, significant to modern Chemical Engineering. Of course, only someone of von Neumann's calibre could do both simultaneously.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

Perhaps there is a more effective way to address the issue.

First, get your Engineering degree. Then, obtain a Master's degree in Physics. Entrance requirements only require any degree at the University of Queensland near where I live (ranked 42 in the world - they slipped a bit - they were in the 30s last time I looked):
https://study.uq.edu.au/study-options/programs/master-science-5712#entry-requirements

If I remember correctly, having a Master's degree reduces the time required to complete a PhD by about a year.

Several years ago, I rang them about doing a PhD in Physics (foundations of QM).

My undergraduate degree is in mathematics, and I was advised to pursue a Master's in Applied Mathematics, and they would guide me in selecting subjects to meet the entrance requirements for the PhD. Perhaps the OP could contact the university he would like to attend for his PhD and obtain their advice on the best way to be admitted to a PhD program after completing an engineering degree, as well as which engineering degree would be most suitable.

Just another idea to consider.

Thanks
Bill

 

[gwnorth]

May I ask what country you are from?

I ask because you really ought to be studying what you are interested in, not necessarily what your family expects you to study.

In an ideal world perhaps but that's a very western centric viewpoint and I suspect that the OP is not from a western country. Even many students from western countries face pressure from family to pursue educational pathways they don't particular want to follow. Expecting an 18 year old to defy their parents' wishes is unrealistic considering that most undergraduates still rely on them for financial support. It also raises the specter of potentially needing to make a complete break with the family should the student choose to disregard their parents' wishes. Even many older adults have difficulties defying their parents.

I think we should take the OP at their word that choosing a non-Engineering pathway for their undergraduate studies is not an option. The issue then becomes is there a pathway the OP could follow that would allow them to satisfy their parents' dictates to study Engineering for their undergraduate degree, but still keeps the door open to be able to pursue Physics at the graduate level.

 

[gwnorth]

I think it wouldnt be impossible to get into a phd in average univeristy if i try with alot of admissions no?

Applying to more programs is not going to increase your chances of admission if your background preparation is not suitable. You need to determine what qualifications are necessary and find a way to meet them. BTW admission to a PhD in Physics in the US, even at an "average" university is going to require relevant research experience.

Your best option I think is to find Physics research master's programs that will admit you with an Engineering background and that will allow you to make up the deficiencies in your coursework. After that you'll be more likely to be able to secure a PhD admission. You also need to be prepared to potentially have to pay out of pocket for some or all of the cost of that master's degree, though in some countries research master's do provide some funding (Canada for example).

 

[questions000]

Applying to more programs is not going to increase your chances of admission if your background preparation is not suitable. You need to determine what qualifications are necessary and find a way to meet them. BTW admission to a PhD in Physics in the US, even at an "average" university is going to require relevant research experience.

Your best option I think is to find Physics research master's programs that will admit you with an Engineering background and that will allow you to make up the deficiencies in your coursework. After that you'll be more likely to be able to secure a PhD admission. You also need to be prepared to potentially have to pay out of pocket for some or all of the cost of that master's degree, though in some countries research master's do provide some funding (Canada for example).

The qualifications needed are strong math background and physics in : QM . stat mech . Classical mech . E&M. Now in my engineering degree i will get the math and E&M . But i have 0 knowledge in classical mech and only introductory QM and no stat mech. I have no problem in self learning these but i dont know how to prove it in my admission . Im thinking PGRE is a way to prove but now i see some people saying its not that vaulable. And also how is research experience a requirement for phd in usa if the phd is after bachelor?